Evolution of Tai Chi/Chi Kung as Martial Arts

[bawang]

You say you train Tai Chi....why and how?

wat u mean

[Kellen Bassette]

I kind of meant how does it figure into a fundamental combat based approach...

do you train it differently then it typically trained

[bawang]

I kind of meant how does it figure into a fundamental combat based approach...

I typed the name of the moves on Chinese google.

do you train it differently then it typically trained

I train by intuition. if something feels weird or stupid, I don't do it.

[xinyidizi]

So if there are people truly interested in training Tai Chi for combat, then why not practice the techniques at fighting speed? Do they only perform at real speed during a tournament or are you guys drilling with resisting partner in real time every class?

A full-time professional Chen Taiji student's training has different parts. Doing the first set slow, the second set fast for fajin and push hands is one part of the training. They also do running, weight training, sparring, partner drills (like this: http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjk3MTI4NDIw.html ) regularly as part of their everyday training.

(The competition video of the taiji student doing the drills: http://www.56.com/u44/v_MzY0Mjc2ODU.html)

[Hebrew Hammer]

I probably didn't word my original query very well, I was trying to find out why Tai Chi, Chi Kung, or even more recently Yoga is taught as meditative and chi development tool? Tai Chi and QiGong were, according to what I've been told, originally their own martial arts. And were taught as such, but for the most part they now are emphasized as health, chi, energy, or meditative arts. What brought this about?

this is the short but complete answer for the total evolution of tai chi

-doing forms slow and smooth was common in longfist systems for beginner training

-supernatural powers was common part of snake oil kung fu

-yang luchan failed the imperial exams but made enough friends to join the retinue of prince duan through backdoor.

-Manchu riflemen were deemed too physically weak to train wrestling, they changed to training tai chi.

-his grandson yang chengfu had the idea of mimicking the elegant slow imperial court dance, then built a new mythology to explain why his martial art had suddenly slowed to snail crawl.

Well Tai Chi and Chi Kung predate Manchu rifleman...I'm stupid round eye so you'll have to connect the dots better for me. I'm not seeing the complete picture.

relatives of tai chi:

hongdong county tongbei, with direct lineage connection to chen tai chi

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guUn8BH7pNM

julu village longfist, with indirect connection

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UY8uKue-orI


you can see the similarity in the salute

Again, I'm not drawing a line to points or exactly what you're trying to show me here.

It appears that when the modern era came into being (1900-I know not the exact date) the designation 'taijiquan' was born.
1. We all know the origin was Chen family village MA
2. We all know Chen family incorporated style of their village
3. We all know Yang family initially got the designation but as more Chen people came to Beijing, they realized that Chen village art was the origin
4. With modernization, they were all lumped together as part of that new taijiquan movement national treasure

Bawang's links show that reformulation of an art is possible with the proper input and skill!

Thanks Mawali, now this is getting more to meat of my question...why Tai Chi is used in conjunction with other arts...you think it was the National Treasure Movement? Were they using Chi Kung or another soft/internal/energy development tool prior to this? As part of their martial offerings?

Not only CMAists, but many karate people also do Taiji to complement their main art. One particularly famous example is (was?) Shotokan pioneer Kanazawa. He had mentioned in an interview that it taught him to use a relaxed energy to complement the hard energy of Shotokan.

However, is Taiji more healthy than other MA? Not necessarily. I've seen many middle-aged and elderly people, some who were teachers, who trained only Taiji, who did not seem healthy at all. In fact, I knew an old man in Taipei who had been a bodybuilder when he was young, had trained some 'Shaolin', and whose main mode of exercise when I knew him was brisk walking. He literally walked circles around the other old men who taught Taiji, and was physically in superior shape, and mentally much sharper and 'alive' than they were. He was also surprisingly strong for his age (at the time, probably his late 70s or early 80s). He claimed he never studied Taiji.

Interesting Jimbo, and something else I've drawn parallels to locally. Even Yoga is extremely popular as a supplemental fitness, breathing, relaxation, health, chi or energy tool at Socal martial arts schools. It maybe a business tool to draw more clients but it certainly fits a similar function as Tai Chi/Chi Kung. I have noticed that many lifetime martial artists are drawn to Tai Chi for one reason or the other and will add it to their styles. I've seen Ninjitsu schools also offer it...I'm just wondering if its only a biz tool but I doubt that.

[crazedjustice88]

In the

- beginner stage, you want to develop structure, Fajin, body unification, ... (static).
- intermediate or advantage stage, you want to develop momentum (dynamic).

Since

momentum = mass * velocity,

Speed training is a must. Slow training will not develop you the feeling of momentum. To stay in the beginner training stage is like to stay in grade school and refuse to graduate.

Well of course. But only a fool forgets the basics once he/she learns the advanced stuff. Besides, we use the hop gar for fighting, only every now and then is the tai chi actually used in combat since most applications are waiting for someone to strike.

[bawang]

Again, I'm not drawing a line to points or exactly what you're trying to show me here.

they share the same salute.

Well Tai Chi and Chi Kung predate Manchu rifleman...I'm stupid round eye so you'll have to connect the dots better for me. I'm not seeing the complete picture.

tai chi exaggerated the slow aspect of longfist and fabricated a mythology around it. then it became popular exercise for physically weak manchus.

[rett]

I probably didn't word my original query very well, I was trying to find out why Tai Chi, Chi Kung, or even more recently Yoga is taught as meditative and chi development tool? Tai Chi and QiGong were, according to what I've been told, originally their own martial arts. And were taught as such, but for the most part they now are emphasized as health, chi, energy, or meditative arts. What brought this about?

As I've learned it, Taiji was actively promoted and popularized in Mainland China from the 1950s onward as a way to improve the health of the population. China had a shortage of doctors and needed to focus on preventive medicine and lifestyle improvements to avert or minimize a health crisis.

This campaign created the modern health/meditation Taiji we see today (or perhaps built on elements that were already there, but spread them on a large scale). The goal wasn't to teach the masses to fight.

Again, this is just the explanation I've heard.

[mawali]

As I've learned it, Taiji was actively promoted and popularized in Mainland China from the 1950s onward as a way to improve the health of the population. China had a shortage of doctors and needed to focus on preventive medicine and lifestyle improvements to avert or minimize a health crisis.

This campaign created the modern health/meditation Taiji we see today (or perhaps built on elements that were already there, but spread them on a large scale). The goal wasn't to teach the masses to fight.

Prior to the 1950s, very few people knew what taijiquan was so as a resul,t Beijing put together the reformation council to abridge and re-engineer taijiquan. Incidently, there were a few people who actually shortened the forms of taijiquan but since they were seen as anti-government, or served in a pre-communist era, or with title and education, they were ignored and put away and 'intellectual property' was stolen since 'who would really care"

[No_Know]

relatives of tai chi:

hongdong county tongbei, with direct lineage connection to chen tai chi

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guUn8BH7pNM

julu village longfist, with indirect connection

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UY8uKue-orI


you can see the similarity in the salute

The first video guy uses a break-a-grab, a trip and a throw, to longfist.

The second video guy uses a breathing move (that converts to a break-a-grab), to a sword translation (that could disguise a throw) to longfist.

The first guy opens with one hand/arm in one motion. The other guy uses two in two motions.

The originator of the second guy's stuff died, the T'ai Chi originator (Chen Wangting) was eight years old. So that we're seeing supposedly hard stuff done slow but with Chen influence, we can only talk about the performances we see today Not the way it was first done.

No_Know

Similarity, not really. Though they both use a throw, one does a health move throw from a sword move the other does deflections, a trip and throw. That's not similar enough for me to call them similar for what you might be trying to say perhaps, bawang.

No_Know

[No_Know]

they share the same salute.


tai chi exaggerated the slow aspect of longfist and fabricated a mythology around it. then it became popular exercise for physically weak manchus.

T'ai Chi Ch'uan core moves seem so many different than core long fist they are distinct. Long fist was first...I just looked at longfist 32 video clip and then a Chen taich 18 video clip... I can see the Long fist in T'ai Chi Ch'uan. Called the Long Fist style of the Emperor I don't think it had particularly slow aspects at all.

In the 500~ years from long fist start to Chen Wangting--T'ai Chi Ch'uan originator's birth. There's stuff going on. I can see long fist as a base and container or basic delivery system for non long fist principles, O.K.

No_Know

[No_Know]

I was wondering how Tai Chi or Chi Kung became a standard complimentary art of hard/external TCMA. Almost all styles CLF, Mantis, Wing Chun, Shaolin, or whatever offer this soft style/ internal martial art as part of their school curriculum? How did this evolve? Is it simply a yin/yang thing?

A system with T'ai Chi Ch'uan added within forty years or so, it might be marketing. Why China would push it is it's like a discovery and they get credited. It's fool proof with high margins for volumous usage. you don't pull muscles doing it and every aged person can do it now or youth can look forward to being expert when they are too long-lived for rugby.

It occurred to me that at least locally, due to the popularity of MMA, more and more TCMA schools are now adding BJJ as the third arm of Modern TCMA. I understand this evolution, it makes them relevant and popular.

If I'm a baker of bread but business dwindles I might realize I can market to weddings, birthday parties and events through cakes then cupcakes--dirves. Schools might add T'ai Chi Ch'uan to the cirriculum to get more paying customers in the angle of Stress relief. Versatile enough to include meditation or spirituality...stack the demographics, load 'er-up.

I know Chi Kung is said to predate Tai Chi, yet Tai Chi became very relevant at some point...any thoughts?]

Qigong is formful. t'ai Chi can be a vehicle through which one can enact the qigongbenefits in a particular direction--use versus development of the tools (the within and out). Purpose to the Power.

No_Know

[Throwaway Child]

How long do people need to train slow in order to "develop better body coordination, understand Jin and fix their stiffness"? 3 years? 5 years? 10 years? 20 years?

What if peole just did slow training all their life and have never tried the fast training method at all?

If slow is to achieve fast then "the older that you are, the faster that you should move". This just don't seem to be the case for some Taiji people.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsDPy7zMrA4

bkuz I am old & fragile

my knees are crippled - so to try & go any faster would only be making life more painful for myself - especially if I am lucky enough to grow older - even better really old like 200

I just found this Video & I'm trying to watch his footwork -->http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zc7eO4eA158

I have never done wu style - But I have some books about it now
I do yang & chen - as far as my taiji goes


someone said that in Wushu - your lifetime opponent is yourself - I don't want to get into a fight with my knees


is that Jerry Alan Johnson in your video ?

[YouKnowWho]

your lifetime opponent is yourself - I don't want to get into a fight with my knees. is that Jerry Alan Johnson in your video ?

Don't know who that person is.

The discussion of combat and health sometime just contradict to each other.

- Combat is to train for others.
- Health is to train for yourself.

When your fist meet your opponent's face, it's neither healthy for your opponent's face nor healthy for your own fist.

[Throwaway Child]

--------------------sifu said ---- "no fighting."- "remember that "