Forms?

[crazedjustice88]

I was wondering what people look for in good forms from people that can use them.

I have seen some forms that look absolutely beautiful. Lots of snap, rotational power, deep stances and the like, but once I spar with them or watch them do it, they can't use it. On the other hand, I have seen kung fu guys with absolutely lazy forms but can beat the ever living crap out of you.

In my sifus hop gar, we don't snap a lot and people don't find our forms pretty, but apparently, David Chin's Hop Gar has a reputation for that and fighting hahaha

I'm just wondering if there is a general guide line to go by when looking at forms to see if people can use it or if ultimately its anyones guess when just looking at forms.

[YouKnowWho]

You don't want to allow forms to define what you can do. You are the master. Forms are your slave.

Here is an example.

- Groin kick (kick),
- parry (block),
- face punch (punch),
- pull punch back,
- arm wrap (clinch),
- throat grab,
- leg hook (throw),
- head smash,
- Knee drop (ground strike),
- arm bar (ground lock).

There exist no forms that contain this combo sequence. The TCMA forms have not evolved into this stage yet. If you let forms to define you, you will never come up such kick, punch, lock, throw, ground game integration. If you make this combo sequence into a form, 1000 years later, it will become "ancient" form.

Create your own forms. Never let forms to create you.

[crazedjustice88]

Hahaha, I know. Thanks for that though, I used to struggle with that all the time, and sometimes I still do. I was just wondering if you were watching a demonstration would you be able to tell if someone could use what they are demonstrating from just simply watching the forms.

[Kellen Bassette]

Forms do not a fighter make.

Why? Glad you asked. You can't develop timing, distance and power through form training. Without these attributes it is just dance.

[Lucas]

i think thats a yes and no answer. i've seen people who are horrible at forms but could fight with the techniques housed in their form, and on the flip side, people who are great at forms and couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag.

IMO, the only time forms are useful is if there are fundamental building blocks that are being transmitted through the repetition of technique and movement transition. i think its more important to learn the technique outside of the form first, learn how it is applied, and learn how to bring that into play in free sparring, then learn the form that holds that technique.

i also think you would be just fine never learning any forms at all ever. i believe any style can transmit their combatives without the use of forms, and probably to a more effecient degree.

[crazedjustice88]

I don't think my initial post got what I was trying to get across...hahaha

I'm fully aware forms don't make fighters. I was just wondering what makes people say things like flowery fists and embroidered legs when simply just seeing the form and nothing else from the individual.

[YouKnowWho]

just seeing the form and nothing else from the individual.

Combat involves timing, opportunity, angle, power, balance. Form can only show power and balance. It won't be able to show timing, opportunity, and angle.

[crazedjustice88]

Combat involves timing, opportunity, angle, power, balance. Form can only show power and balance. It won't be able to show timing, opportunity, and angle.

Well of course not. I'm just wondering what makes people see a form a day that about them when they haven't seen the other training of the individual.

Example: a great fighter does a form.

Man/woman a: that's just flowery fists and embroidered kicks
Man/woman b: have you seen his other training though? He's the best fighter in the school.

I hope I'm getting my point across

[Lucas]

I don't think my initial post got what I was trying to get across...hahaha

I'm fully aware forms don't make fighters. I was just wondering what makes people say things like flowery fists and embroidered legs when simply just seeing the form and nothing else from the individual.

a lot of those terms come from the adjustments made when structuring a form for performance purposes. things like locked elbows/knees, extra rotation, unnecessary jumping or flying, 'technique mimicry', 'flailing' etc.

so the yes and no to that question can also come in the form of experience in the techniques you are watching someone perform, but also in the way similar techniques are often 'played' in a sequence.

on average i would say the answer is no. but sometimes there are things so glaringly obvious, the answer becomes yes. i can generally spot a full contemp wushu player in the first sections of a form. likewise very application oriented people will be much less flashy, more substance and you can generally see that played out in the way they present technique. when and where power is applied is usually another sign. aesthetically power looks better in other places than it does when we are thinking combat only.

there are some serious no no's when it comes to combat, so anytime you see these things pop up in a form its a good cause to question.

[YouKnowWho]

A form can be done in 3 different ways.

1. combat (punch out fast, pull back fast),
2. health (punch out slow, pull back fast),
3. performance (punch out fast, pull back slow).

You can't use health training or performance training for combat training.

[Kellen Bassette]

I'm fully aware forms don't make fighters. I was just wondering what makes people say things like flowery fists and embroidered legs when simply just seeing the form and nothing else from the individual.

Sometimes it just looks "flowery" it's just the best word to describe it.

[crazedjustice88]

Aahhh...that makes sense. I haven done wushu or the like, so I guess its difficult for me to judge those forms, but those examples do make sense and now that you mention it, I have seen those in karate forms and the like. Thanks guys for clearing that up.

[bawang]

In my sifus hop gar, we don't snap a lot and people don't find our forms pretty, but apparently, David Chin's Hop Gar has a reputation for that and fighting hahaha

all real northern kung fu forms look like hap ga

crisp, high jump, low stance are mandatory modern wushu competition guidelines, that's why you see it so much

[crazedjustice88]

all real northern kung fu forms look like hap ga

crisp, high jump, low stance are mandatory modern wushu competition guidelines, that's why you see it so much

That makes sense. When I have done the forms no one likes them unless I overdo the low stances and snap hahaha. Makes sense man. Thanks.

[Dragonzbane76]

i think its more important to learn the technique outside of the form first, learn how it is applied, and learn how to bring that into play in free sparring, then learn the form that holds that technique.

what it should be....
But most don't follow that guide in TCMA