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Thread: Wing Chun - Poetry In Motion

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    手脚发力 与身无关
    Power is generated from arms and legs. It has nothing to do with body.
    The meaning in such short phrases is not always clear. That's the problem with Chinese grammar. Could the intended meaning not be to say 'power generated from arms and legs has nothing to do with body' in a negative statement? It doesn't make sense that someone who knows about the 6 harmonies would then contradict themselves completely like this. Your addition of 'is' and 'it' have no representation in Chinese. So it makes it difficult to know the intended meaning, as it could be either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    不行心意 只用精神 
    Not using mind and intention, using only essence and spirit .


    Sorry there is no such type of human in this world, even the Buddha has to use intention if he is going to press a door bell to visit me.
    Xin and Yi refer the 8th and 7th consciousnesses in Buddhism. Intent is the 'thinking' consciousness, responsible for the creation of karma. The Buddha does not use intention. Buddhas are incapable of volitional action (karma) because they have completely transformed all consciousness into pure wisdom. Their actions are called kriya and leave no karmic trace. Their actions are driven by pure wisdom. So in a Buddhist sense, this could be referring to 'enlightened' action; i.e. not using thoughts and emotions to drive your actions.
    Last edited by LFJ; 08-11-2013 at 04:06 AM.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    'power generated from arms and legs has nothing to do with body'.
    If I am honest this is how I see that line because the power talked about here may well be muscular power, not unified joint power of the 6 harmonies. And if we take the line in such a way it does make complete sense especially if taken into context with our wooden man training.

    But at the end of the day this is also why it is hard to discern exactly what is what without direct transmission!

    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    So in a Buddhist sense, this could be referring to 'enlightened' action; i.e. not using thoughts and emotions to drive your actions.


    Are you sure you haven't been taught these lines directly?

    Great start to the discussion... and in a strange twist, if you put these specific lines through Google translate their meaning is similar but still different

    手脚发力 与身无关
    Force has nothing to do with the body limbs

    不行心意 只用精神
    Not only with the spirit of the mind
    Last edited by LoneTiger108; 08-11-2013 at 05:28 AM.
    Ti Fei
    詠春國術

  3. #18
    1.In fact ,
    不行心意 只用精神
    Not using mind/heart , use spirit.

    is contradicting to wing chun kuen 拳從心發 fist issue from heart/mind.


    2. What is a technology in performing a martial art action got to do with a buddhism religious believe of enlightenment ?


    3. In Chinese , This above type of writing is very common writing which collect lots of stuffs but really confusing.




    The following is the proper Buddhism theory on mind and intention. So please do not mis interprate

     平等性智是由第七识所转的。在你未明白之时就叫第七识,一开悟后就叫平等性智。第七识又叫末那耶识,又叫 传送识,它由第七识传给第八识,故叫传送识。而第八识又叫含藏识,梵语叫阿赖耶识,所作善恶的种子,都藏在 第八识里,故种善因就结善果,种恶因就结恶果,所以叫八识田。此识好像一块田,你种什么它就生 什么。

    Also in Buddhism , there is no using of the term 精神 Essence spirit. Essence spirit is Chinese culture terminology.



    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    Xin and Yi refer the 8th and 7th consciousnesses in Buddhism.

    Intent is the 'thinking' consciousness, responsible for the creation of karma. The Buddha does not use intention.

    Buddhas are incapable of volitional action (karma) because they have completely transformed all consciousness into pure wisdom. Their actions are called kriya and leave no karmic trace. Their actions are driven by pure wisdom.

    So in a Buddhist sense, this could be referring to 'enlightened' action; i.e. not using thoughts and emotions to drive your actions.
    Last edited by Hendrik; 08-11-2013 at 06:28 AM.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    1.In fact ,
    不行心意 只用精神
    No using mind/heart , use spirit.

    is contradicting to wing chun kuen 拳從心發 fist issue from heart/mind.
    Seriously?

    For me 心意 and 心發 are two totally different ideas and both have their place in Wing Chun.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    3. In Chinese , This above type of writing is very common writing which collect lots of stuffs but really confusing.
    Yes I understand that, this is a reason I shared it here so we could get some convo going... but you must understand that if you haven't had direct transmission of the lines and their direct relationship to your own training they will only cause more confusion!!

    Like I have said, this is not from my own learning but I see the commonality of the rhythmic formulae and because I have experience in the older more classical kuit too I can kind of see what the writer is sharing... sometimes!
    Ti Fei
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  5. #20
    The writing says

    念头主守 寻桥打手

    Siu lim tau is mainly defense.
    Chum kiu is striking hands

    Is that true ?



    Wck philosophy is using center guarding center or capture center guarding center , or using proactive move , there is no such thing as mainly defense.

    Siu lim tau is basic development training set of Wck , how will it be going contradict to Wck philosophy?


    Is chum kiu striking hands ? You guys knows the answers.

  6. #21
    For me 心意 and 心發 are two totally different ideas and both have their place in Wing Chun. ------


    See, the writing above ask you to not use of the above.







    Like I have said, this is not from my own learning but I see the commonality of the rhythmic formulae and because I have experience in the older more classical kuit too I can kind of see what the writer is sharing... sometimes! --------


    That is why I stress on presenting the coherence of Chinese martial art DNA and Chinese official history. That way we know the source of the writing. Otherwise everyone can create their own kuit or history whether they are making sense or not.
    That mislead the heck out of people.


    A similar thing ,as in weng chun thread. is some one always like to say wing chun is weng chun , disregard of Gm Ipman has clarify wing and weng are different style. And ignore the fact on the history and tcma DNA prove they are different. But keep continuously spreading misleading view to the west on Jee sim story and shaolin story...etc .

    As wing chuner , why don't one believe in Gm Ipman? Why don't one believe in Chinese official history and tcma DNA which support Gm Ipman statement?





    It is just last two days, we complete a systematic wing chun 1850 intensive , going through all major elements of Wck, history facts, tcma DNA, and snt set . This is the first time in the western history we release the kuen kuit in details and we do snt accord to the instruction of the kuen kuit in details. We do know Wck core basic very clearly today. We know the core elements and its systemic relationship.
    Last edited by Hendrik; 08-11-2013 at 06:52 AM.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    2. What is a technology in performing a martial art action got to do with a buddhism religious believe of enlightenment ?
    Well, you brought up Buddhism in relation to it. That's the only reason I commented on it. But in fact, Buddhism is a large part of Chinese culture, including martial art culture. In some WC lineages, the Buddhist reference is certainly clear.

    The following is the proper Buddhism theory on mind and intention. So please do not mis interprate

    平等性智是由第七识所转的。在你未明白之时就叫第七识,一开悟后就叫平等性智。
    Have I misinterpreted it? Are you saying 'wisdom of universal equality' is the same as the 'discriminative consciousness'? This line here clearly states that with enlightenment such consciousness is transformed into wisdom.

    We can simply keep this topic on Wing Chun though. It doesn't really matter.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    The writing says

    念头主守 寻桥打手

    Siu lim tau is mainly defense.
    Chum kiu is striking hands

    Is that true ?
    Sure, in a sense. SNT defines the center and central lines as the foundation of the system's fighting theory, and develops proper elbow behavior. Yet it is not functional until CK.

  9. #24
    If you want to talk Wck, focus on the proper track.

    If you want to talk Buddhism following the proper path.

    Not using things just for your argument but misleading.


    Have anyone in this world ever ever seen a human being operate in proper living physical artivity without using intention? The answer is no.

    So, why defend the writing when it is nonsense, but just someone write it out of the blue and making it sound deep?


    The writing is clear contradicting the wing chun fist issue from heart, clearly contradicting as John who is an expert in suai chio has post above.

    How much $hit like this type of writing you want to release to the west to polluted the heck out of westerners ?


    Chinese culture or buddhism phylosophy do not corvent Human and physiology reality .
    Wck is all about combat physical momentum handling. There is no place for fantasy ideas.


    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    Well, you brought up Buddhism in relation to it. That's the only reason I commented on it. But in fact, Buddhism is a large part of Chinese culture, including martial art culture. In some WC lineages, the Buddhist reference is certainly clear.



    Have I misinterpreted it? Are you saying 'wisdom of universal equality' is the same as the 'discriminative consciousness'? This line here clearly states that with enlightenment such consciousness is transformed into wisdom.

    We can simply keep this topic on Wing Chun though. It doesn't really matter.
    Last edited by Hendrik; 08-11-2013 at 07:03 AM.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    Have anyone in this world ever ever seen a human being operate in proper living physical artivity without using intention? The answer is no.
    It refers to the 'discriminative consciousness'. It is an admonition to not act from thought or emotion. It went over your head apparently. There seems to be a lot of thinking in your WCK.

    The writing is clear contradicting the wing chun fist issue from heart, clearly contradicting as John who is an expert in suai chio has post above.
    Or it could be that you are confused about the meaning of both phrases...

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    The writing is clear contradicting the wing chun fist issue from heart, clearly contradicting as John who is an expert in suai chio has post above.

    How much $hit like this type of writing you want to release to the west to polluted the heck out of westerners ?
    Are you serious???!! Again Hendrik what are you babbling on about??

    I present a piece of Kuit that we can openly discuss yet you condemn it straight away with your misinterpreted translations and now you are taking the word of a Shuai Shou practitioner??

    Dude you may be losing the plot...
    Ti Fei
    詠春國術

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    there is no such thing as mainly defense.
    Spoken like a true keyboard warrior

    SLT builds the habitual responses and actions to allow us to comfortably receive anything and everything... actually by maximizing our central lines of defense! Hence the line talking about being 'mainly defensive'. This doesn't mean I can not attack with SLT, but it suggests the real attacking is held within Chum Kiu, which I too have learnt.

    You are an intelligent guy mate, and I would have thought you of all people would understand that you simply do not know this Kuit at all, it is alien to you like it is to the rest of us and yet because it doesn't match your own research it simply must be wrong?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    How much $hit like this type of writing you want to release to the west to polluted the heck out of westerners ?
    The EXACT same thing can be said about anything you have shared with us all here Hendrik, or are you too blind to even see that?

    Fact is, this specific piece was shared by one of the foremost Wing Chun Sifus currently sharing his lifetimes experience around the world on behalf of the Ip Family, and personally I think that is where your own prejudices and problems arise... which is cool and all... many people do not like the Ip Family!

    But please, unless you can contribute to my thread you may as well continue with your own ones and share your thoughts on what you know rather than what you clearly do not.
    Ti Fei
    詠春國術

  13. #28
    I just told wcners two days ago that lots of wcners are just people living in the Hong Kong martial art movies. They never get out of the cinema to see the real sun and sky.


    I will take John words more then the writing here at any time. At least John compete in hundreds of sparing , johns sifu is unbeatable in china sc. If you think leung jan is great the John sifu Gm
    chang is the Leung jan of sc. That is reality.


    The writer of the kuit above is like a movie watcher, John is like a person who live in wildness . Which one you want to follow when " Toto, this is not inside cinema watching movie any more?"


    Combat is not a Chinese ritual or culture ritual or religious practice. Combat has to be back by law of physics. It certainly not sitting in the cinema chair and thinking one is iron man or spider man or super man just repeat the mantra called kuit or poetry.


    So, do you want reality and live or do you like to make believe you are the red boat troupe, waving you flag, reciting you kuit, but sitting in the cinema which got nothing what ever todo with reality?



    Btw. If I am going to fight John. I better know what he knows in the reality. If he knows how to play in the physical momentum more then me, then I don't have to fight him because I know I have already lost. Because I don't have the technology John has.



    Do I contribute in this thread?

    Yes. I ask you and wcners, do you want to live in cinema keep watching movie reciting lyrics of the song or you want to play in the real world outside the cinema?




    The EXACT same thing can be said about anything you have shared with us all here Hendrik, or are you too blind to even see that?


    Sorry, every kuit I shared can be realized and attain with a human body and mind accord to law of physics. It is not a lyrics for opera violating physical worlds law. I think wcners needs to know this.





    I rather listen to John if my kuit poetry is like yours.
    Why don't you check out how many champion and fighters in sc or chinese wrestling competition in both the west and asia John has trained?
    And how many has your poetry contribute to?

    Get real and wake up wcners. Or you will be put in museum with your pajama in less then a decade. Btw, sc is like bjj. Can you face that with your cinema Wck?


    I know facing this is painful, but many will rather face it.
    This is my last post in this thread, sweat dream.


    I understand I am politically incorrect and not good in presenting in a comfortable manner which I need to improve myself. That I sincerely appology to you!

    Quote Originally Posted by LoneTiger108 View Post
    Are you serious???!! Again Hendrik what are you babbling on about??

    I present a piece of Kuit that we can openly discuss yet you condemn it straight away with your misinterpreted translations and now you are taking the word of a Shuai Shou practitioner??


    Dude you may be losing the plot...
    Last edited by Hendrik; 08-12-2013 at 08:51 AM.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    I just told wcners two days ago that lots of wcners are just people living in the Hong Kong martial art movies. They never get out of the cinema to see the real sun and sky.
    But you yourself are trapped in your own movie Hendrik? I have never seen you interact with anyone on any clip and know you are confused about what you have and have not learnt from your teachers... it's clearly evident in your ramblings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    Combat is not a Chinese ritual or culture ritual or religious practice. Combat has to be back by law of physics. It certainly not sitting in the cinema chair and thinking one is iron man or spider man or super man just repeat the mantra called kuit or poetry.
    You are now describing yourself? Because you definitely are not describing me, or many others that post here on the forum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    So, do you want reality and live or do you like to make believe you are the red boat troupe, waving you flag, reciting you kuit, but sitting in the cinema which got nothing what ever todo with reality?
    Now here are your true colours lol! Never thought you would lower yourself to playground pi$$ taking, but there you have it!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    Do I contribute in this thread?

    Yes. I ask you and wcners, do you want to live in cinema keep watching movie reciting lyrics of the song or you want to play in the real world outside the cinema?
    Can you actually hear yourself? This is a very rich statement coming from the person with the all secretive Ermei magic mushroom kuit that created Wing Chun!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    Sorry, every kuit I shared can be realized and attain with a human body and mind accord to law of physics. It is not a lyrics for opera violating physical worlds law. I think wcners needs to know this.
    I'm sorry too because I think I am speaking to a different Hendrik today.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    I rather listen to John if my kuit poetry is like yours.

    And how many has your poetry contribute to
    I don't know where you got the idea that this Kuit was mine?? As I have said earlier it was shared by Sifu Samuel Kwok and I am still to learn of it's origin and will fill you in when I know for sure.

    Not that it will make any difference to your childish rant

    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    I understand I am politically incorrect and not good in presenting in a comfortable manner which I need to improve myself. That I sincerely appology to you!
    It is not me you need to apologize to Hendrik, it is my Sifu, his Sifu, Ip Man and all the ancestors of Wing Chun leading through the Operatic troupes going back beyond Leung Jan!!

    Make sure you ask forgiveness from them next time you burn that incense of yours sir...
    Ti Fei
    詠春國術

  15. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by LoneTiger108 View Post



    It is not me you need to apologize to Hendrik, it is my Sifu, his Sifu, Ip Man and all the ancestors of Wing Chun leading through the Operatic troupes going back beyond Leung Jan!!

    Make sure you ask forgiveness from them next time you burn that incense of yours sir...


    Here I sincerely appology that I should have consider others feeling before delive the facts. As all human we are sentient beings, and feeling is much important than facts in a human world.

    I learn my lesson . Sorry!

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