WSL on LSJC

[guy b.]

Yeah, like Chan Kim Man... the second guy on the video in the original post, doing the springing energy LSJC thing with WSL. Yeah? Pretty much everyone I can think of.

Yes but hasn't he answered this? CKM is teaching at a seminar with WSL and what they are doing is simplified and/or stylized. Not class type teaching for regular students.

If you have been receiving long term class type teaching from CKM and he is still giving you the kind of thing in the clip then either Graham is wrong or he is correct and teaching you that way for a particular reason.

[LFJ]

Yes but hasn't he answered this? CKM is teaching at a seminar with WSL and what they are doing is simplified and/or stylized. Not class type teaching for regular students.

Yeah, but it is though. He taught these things consistently throughout his career, as evidenced by all his students (except PB), this video footage, and even when he said in that interview I posted on the last page;

"Wherever and whomever I have been teaching, it has been my preference to convey the information to all people in attendance. I try to treat everyone equally during my lessons and seminars."

[Jansingsang]

Ha! Not recovered? Nah mate. CP is a donut but he is still teaching under the WSL banner and is still regarded as an authority here in the UK. You know it wasn't just me that outed CP. It was a whole group of people many who now train under the DP banner and PB banner. Anyway that's in the past but it does have some sort of bearing on this conversation in the fact that CP did attend WSL seminars. He pretty much teaches a very poor version of what LFJ regards as WSL gospel. All the forms full of applications and three different types of Tan Sau. We all know he got it wrong so you can see the problem

Oh so glad too hear that. The reason being i have a one or two Students who on occasion, revert back too there old methodology of what they were taught. For one started talking about his former teacher who in fact caused this fella a shoulder injury due to wrong bong soa execution which resulted in him having a operation..

So when he starts banging on about what happened his whole performance level drops Errors errors So as soon as he starts his moan . I stop him in his tracks cause if you talk about garbage you become it

And i have another one who's ingrained incorrect method he learned on occasion rises to the surface, off balance arm clingers etc Ahhhh So if your not careful VT can seriously F%#k you up not just physically but Psychological as well maybe others have similar experiences

[tc101]

It's the implication, to say what WSL taught them was impractical nonsense, and then to say he taught the real stuff to PB is to say that he clearly knew the difference and knowingly taught nonsense to the other folks. That would be both lying and cheating.

I don't think that's what he did, by the way. Graham just wants to be a purist, seemingly an effect of having come to a good teacher after leaving a charlatan. But all evidence points to PB having a different approach to VT.

Suppose you go train with Bayer and are very impressed or blown away both by his skills and by his ideas.

And suppose Bayer tells you that what he does and what he teaches is exactly what WSL taught him and that this is how wing chun is supposed to be with the whole we have the right idea and everyone else is wrong shtick. This is not unique to Bayer but we see this same scenario played out again and again only with different names.

And suppose you are the sort of person who uncritically believes what you are told by people you trust like your instructor and not a cynical, mistrusting, jaded ahole like myself.

Now suppose you are then shown evidence which contradicts what your teacher has been telling you that WSL did not teach only let us call it the Bayer system but things Bayer says is absolutely wrong. How do you reconcile that?

I think there are several possible reactions including yes WSL taught that crap but that was either because those people were not with him long enough to really learn how to do it right so he was just tweaking what they already did (which does not explain why the guys with him for longer than Bayer also do them and have differing ideas) or that he was teaching two distinct versions of wing chun (how many times have we heard that one?) or that he was misrepresenting things (for what purpose? and what does that say about his character?).

Another reaction might be to think that perhaps WSL did teach Bayer individually, building Bayer's wing chun around Bayer's personal strengths and weaknesses much as a boxing trainer does with an individual boxer and developing his personal approach to wing chun. So when WSL told Bayer this is what Yip Man taught me he was not lying because that also seemed to be how Yip Man often taught by tailoring things to the individual. Of course to accept this view means you must give up your whole notion of there being a one right best way.

This is really the problem it is the whole idea of there being a one right best way. Once you swallow that pill you will find yourself facing all kinds of contradictions including why did WSL teach things that were wrong, why do people who are oing it wrong beat the guys doing it right and so on. Until you see that idea is not true and accept that there are other equally valid ways as yours you will be stuck and will have no reasonable explanation because of course there is none.

Perhaps Bayer mistook the tailored training as THE way rather than A way or perhaps that is his selling point like it is with other or perhaps he is very modest and does not want to take credit or whatever. My personal opinion is this my way is the best right way is a huge selling point to arm chair people since that is the only group it will work on. If a boxing trainer tried that he would be rediculed. Boxing and bjj gyms don't advertise we have the right or best way they will say things like produce a long list of champs (results) or have a laid back atmosphere (so prospects won't be intimidated) or similar things. But when you try to sell your wing chun if you are not fighting (so no results to offer) what are your selling points? Lineage, we have the original way, the best or right idea, street deadliness.

[LFJ]

Another reaction might be to think that perhaps WSL did teach Bayer individually, building Bayer's wing chun around Bayer's personal strengths and weaknesses much as a boxing trainer does with an individual boxer and developing his personal approach to wing chun.

That may be possible. Some things I've seen seem like he's compensating for his disability, but he apparently teaches his students this way too because it is effective.

Of course to accept this view means you must give up your whole notion of there being a one right best way.

I don't have such a notion, just what works vs what doesn't. I think both WSLVT and PBVT are effective methods. My point is that they are apparently not 100% the same, which is fine by me, not by Graham. I'm not a purist like him. I just care whether or not it works.

It's the PB students with this notion, seemingly due to having come from previous clown schools. The difference in effectiveness is so big they are convinced they've found the one true way. Having been in WSLVT from the start, I don't subscribe to that.

[Graham H]

That may be possible. Some things I've seen seem like he's compensating for his disability, but he apparently teaches his students this way too because it is effective.

Ha! So you think that PB teaches a method specifically with his disability in mind to students who weren't so unfortunate??????????? LMAO

I don't have such a notion, just what works vs what doesn't. I think both WSLVT and PBVT are effective methods. My point is that they are apparently not 100% the same, which is fine by me, not by Graham. I'm not a purist like him. I just care whether or not it works.

WSLVT is PBVT!!!!!!

It's the PB students with this notion, seemingly due to having come from previous clown schools. The difference in effectiveness is so big they are convinced they've found the one true way. Having been in WSLVT from the start, I don't subscribe to that.

I'll await your visit to PB and then see what you say. What makes you so different? Everybody else has had their eyes opened. You would probably be next on the list.

[LFJ]

I'll await your visit to PB and then see what you say. What makes you so different? Everybody else has had their eyes opened. You would probably be next on the list.

Eyes open to what, that WSLVT is nonsense? I already know PBVT is good.

[LFJ]

I don't have such a notion, just what works vs what doesn't. I think both WSLVT and PBVT are effective methods. My point is that they are apparently not 100% the same, which is fine by me, not by Graham. I'm not a purist like him. I just care whether or not it works.

WSLVT is PBVT!!!!!!

ROFL! See what I mean?!

[Graham H]

So you are actually convinced that what WSL taught everybody else he didn't teach PB and that PB has one hand Kung Fu and basically has reinvented the system??? You really are a bit of a nob mate.

[LFJ]

No. I gather that PB's approach is largely a result of discarding certain things from WSLVT he doesn't find useful. I don't think he added to it because it's quite similar to what I've been doing, just minus some things. So if he simplified the method and it is effective, good for him.

[guy b.]

Yeah, but it is though. He taught these things consistently throughout his career, as evidenced by all his students (except PB)

All? Which WSL students do you have long term learning experience with?

[guy b.]

Now suppose you are then shown evidence which contradicts what your teacher has been telling you that WSL did not teach only let us call it the Bayer system but things Bayer says is absolutely wrong. How do you reconcile that?

There isn't evidence until there are names. LFJ saying that "all" other WSLVT guys do it differently doesn't amount to evidence because he has't learned from all other WSL students. The PB guys have an explanation for the seminar video differences that is believable. There is also a plausible reason why LFJ might have been taught seminar type stuff.

Alternatively it is perfectly possible that PB did drop some things from the system or focus it in a certain direction and that the PB true believers are confused. But until someone actually talks about specific people teaching specific things it is just a meaningless shouting match.

[LFJ]

The PB guys have an explanation for the seminar video differences that is believable.

No they don't. I asked what reason there would have been for WSL to consistently teach 3 different taan-sau over the years if there is no such thing and it is all impractical nonsense as they say. Certainly not for simplicity sake. No response.

There is also a plausible reason why LFJ might have been taught seminar type stuff.

No there isn't. Did you not see the quote by WSL where he said he has always given the information to everyone equally, to whomever and wherever he taught, in his classes and seminars? "Seminar type stuff" is Graham's made up excuse.

[Frost]

No they don't. I asked what reason there would have been for WSL to consistently teach 3 different taan-sau over the years if there is no such thing and it is all impractical nonsense as they say. Certainly not for simplicity sake. No response.



No there isn't. Did you not see the quote by WSL where he said he has always given the information to everyone equally, to whomever and wherever he taught, in his classes and seminars? "Seminar type stuff" is Graham's made up excuse.

out of interest which WSL long term students have you trained with since you keep saying they all teach the same way? Naming them would put to rest guy bs questions
Come to think of it how long was WSLs teraching career? how many senior students did he have, who spent the most time with him? and how does that time compare with the time PB spent with him?

[Graham H]

out of interest which WSL long term students have you trained with since you keep saying they all teach the same way? Naming them would put to rest guy bs questions
Come to think of it how long was WSLs teraching career? how many senior students did he have, who spent the most time with him? and how does that time compare with the time PB spent with him?

I don't think he has trained with any has he?. He hasn't even said how long he has been training with CKM. I'd be interested to know.