I know, I know... your denial is just a punching concept.
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I know, I know... your denial is just a punching concept.
No mocking, tongue-in-cheek signature here... move on.
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"don't chase arms" doesn't have to mean never seek arm contact. Instead it can be taken as meaning don't follow arms that are retreating out of the centre area. If those arms are going to an irrelevant place, keep your arms in the relevant place.Originally Posted by LFJ
Seeking arm contact in the centre area can be a valid strategy. Above all it's likely to happen even if you are striking on an open line. Don't seek arm contact for its own sake at any cost, but be happy if it happens. Arms in contact in the centre area is where WCK is supposed to excel. Playing the game where you excel is a good idea.
Also, aphorisms and metaphors can have multiple interpretations.
Just 2cents. Please return to your regularly scheduled programming.
Last edited by rett; 09-01-2013 at 11:40 AM.
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This seems so obvious, yet we are what... 36 pages into this thread!?!
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BPWT ...I count 5, or perhaps 6 appearances of tan-sau per hand or side in the WT SNT depending on what you label as "tan". There's 1. the initial gow-cha (crossed) tan-sau in the opening, 2. the centerline tan-sau opening the "saam pai fut" movements, 3. (you might not call this next one a "tan") the double rising tan-sau that follows the double lan-sau/fak-sau/jum sau movements, which I prefer to think of as lifting hands or a double tok sau movement, 4. the second centerline tan --preceding jum-sau/gwat-sau/and lau-sau in the last section, and 5. tan again appears when the lau-sau previously mentioned above terminates into a ko tan-sau or high-level tan. And, 6. if you really want to dig, some discern a series of three tan-sau movements of the withdrawing arm in the final tut-sau or freeing hand sequence at the end of the form.
That's a lotta tans baby. So what was it those guys were going on about again?
Last edited by Grumblegeezer; 09-01-2013 at 12:52 PM.
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Thats blasphemy that is
A clever man learns from his mistakes but a truly wise man learns from the mistakes of others.
Wing Chun kung fu in Redditch
Worcestershire Wing Chun Kuen on facebook
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You will have to forgive me, I have no experience of tendon and joint work in wing chun. You will need to explain how it is done and (if possible) what it helps with, and how it does so.For? For getting force out - releasing. How? Think about it.Why? Why do you think? C'mon. If you've trained other Chinese systems, it is all quite obvious.
How does PB avoid training this aspect? Well, as his students don't do it... I can only guess he doesn't teach it.
Regarding PB avoiding the training, I think you said it had something to do with huen sau movements. PB does these, as does everyone else, so are they doing the joint/tendon work without knowing it or do they need to know what they are doing for it to have any effect? If so how does this work?
Thanks
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I'm just asking. If something useful that I have missed then I would look into it. I'm not WSL or nothing
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There has been a lot of quite detailed WSL VT information posted here. If you are honest then I think you will admit that it has helped your understanding somewhat, even though you prefer to rationalise it as just part of the bigger LT system. Whatever.You know how it is - if WSL or PB didn't say it, it simply cannot exist.
Heck, they sometimes get confused about the things WSL did say!
But of course it's entirely possible to train VT without such things. These guys can train however they wish. It's just funny how they ask others to be open minded and in the same breath rule out aspects of training found in various WC/VT/WT lineages.
If you have something to share then post some information about it. Who knows, maybe you can help someone in return?
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No problem
Huen Sau appears many times in the forms (across all lineages) and I was taught that this is because it places emphasis on the need to train it for what's inside the movements.
We'd probably all agree that when we strike we don't want to be tensing all our muscles.To do so will hamper speed (put the brakes on) and restrict the force of the strike (stop the flow of the force). So we need to use certain muscles to power the movement (triceps and lats), but we need to disengage the biceps and forearm, keeping them as relaxed as we can. The muscles we do actively use are supported by the stance and its kim sut, like I was saying before. The adduction force of the stance is not just to aid stability.
When you perform Huen Sau (in our lineage), the arm is full outstretched and you need to pay attention to what the elbow and the shoulder are doing (movement and/or position) during the Huen motion. The hand is open during part of the Huen motion and then closes into a fist during that same motion - and again you have to pay attention during this to the elbow and shoulder, as well as to the wrist.
You're working the correct articulation - as the motion is working the joints while at the same time working to stretch and strengthen the tendons. So this is about working the connective tissue while at the same time paying attention to correct muscle use (using those you need to, and relaxing/disengaging those you don't need to).
What's it all for?
If you're powering your strikes with certain muscles and muscle groups, but keeping parts of the arm relaxed (in the LTWT lineage we don't want tension in the forearm or the hand when we strike), then your tendon and joint work aids in flexibility and allows the strike to have better transmission of force.
Which makes sense as sometimes people liken tendons to rubber bands connecting bones.
The Saam Bai Tze in the Biu Tze form works something similar, though with different movements and emphasis, but the general rules are the same (and the striking movements and general body methods inside of the BT form itself really take advantage of this tendon work once you've put in the time and effort - the form has what some call an elastic quality - kinda whip-like power).
Thinking of tendons as rubber bands is just my way of thinking about it, by the way, I've never heard Leung Ting use this analogy.
The Saam Pai Fut section of SNT trains various things, but the elbow, shoulder and wrist and thumb position of the 3x Fook Sau are also engaging the tendons, joints and certain muscles. Which is one of the reasons why they need to be done slowly and correctly.
Of course, although not complicated, you need someone to show you the positions of the joints, the correct articulation, etc, for these training methods.
And, perhaps most importantly, training these things in the forms isn't enough. The forms are the beginning. You need to isolate these particular training methods and train them outside of the forms... a lot.
But the way you perform the forms generally, and as you train drills that require you to recycle the arms, etc, your learning arm methods and supporting body methods that take advantage of this relaxed use of force.
In a previous thread (many moons ago) I mentioned how the BT form has a different quality of power to it, and a few people laughed this off saying that it was hard enough to develop regular VT power, let alone adding in more power methods. But this is not really true, IMO, as this expression of power comes out naturally from the tendon training you do coupled with the particular torque and use of the spine in the BT form.
But I type all of this and I know the response that is coming from some - it is all just BS from Leung Ting.Meh!
No mocking, tongue-in-cheek signature here... move on.
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Indeed. Many posts have helped me build up a much better idea of how the PB students and other WSL students train. I've never critiqued anyone for being open and posting something informative.
We might argue over the details, and things go a little pear-shaped when people stoop low and insult people's teachers, etc, but generally there's a few good posts here and there.
But yes - the more I read the more I think that PBVT training, and in some cases other WSLVT lineage training has a focus on particular aspects of the art and honing those to a high level. Maybe other areas of the art are deliberately left out.
Who knows. At the end of the day, how others train doesn't affect my training. But I'm interested in trying to understand different approaches. Hence why YM's contact with other people is interesting - knowing what came from who is not pointless, if it can aid your own training and understanding.
No mocking, tongue-in-cheek signature here... move on.
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Thanks for your responsesIndeed. Many posts have helped me build up a much better idea of how the PB students and other WSL students train. I've never critiqued anyone for being open and posting something informative.
We might argue over the details, and things go a little pear-shaped when people stoop low and insult people's teachers, etc, but generally there's a few good posts here and there.
But yes - the more I read the more I think that PBVT training, and in some cases other WSLVT lineage training has a focus on particular aspects of the art and honing those to a high level. Maybe other areas of the art are deliberately left out.
Who knows. At the end of the day, how others train doesn't affect my training. But I'm interested in trying to understand different approaches. Hence why YM's contact with other people is interesting - knowing what came from who is not pointless, if it can aid your own training and understanding.
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You saved me posting the bs meter ; )No problem
Huen Sau appears many times in the forms (across all lineages) and I was taught that this is because it places emphasis on the need to train it for what's inside the movements.
We'd probably all agree that when we strike we don't want to be tensing all our muscles.
When you perform Huen Sau (in our lineage), the arm is full outstretched and you need to pay attention to what the elbow and the shoulder are doing (movement and/or position) during the Huen motion. The hand is open during part of the Huen motion and then closes into a fist during that same motion - and again you have to pay attention during this to the elbow and shoulder, as well as to the wrist.
You're working the correct articulation - as the motion is working the joints while at the same time working to stretch and strengthen the tendons. So this is about working the connective tissue while at the same time paying attention to correct muscle use (using those you need to, and relaxing/disengaging those you don't need to).
What's it all for?
If you're powering your strikes with certain muscles and muscle groups, but keeping parts of the arm relaxed (in the LTWT lineage we don't want tension in the forearm or the hand when we strike), then your tendon and joint work aids in flexibility and allows the strike to have better transmission of force.
Which makes sense as sometimes people liken tendons to rubber bands connecting bones.
The Saam Bai Tze in the Biu Tze form works something similar, though with different movements and emphasis, but the general rules are the same (and the striking movements and general body methods inside of the BT form itself really take advantage of this tendon work once you've put in the time and effort - the form has what some call an elastic quality - kinda whip-like power).
Thinking of tendons as rubber bands is just my way of thinking about it, by the way, I've never heard Leung Ting use this analogy.
The Saam Pai Fut section of SNT trains various things, but the elbow, shoulder and wrist and thumb position of the 3x Fook Sau are also engaging the tendons, joints and certain muscles. Which is one of the reasons why they need to be done slowly and correctly.
Of course, although not complicated, you need someone to show you the positions of the joints, the correct articulation, etc, for these training methods.
And, perhaps most importantly, training these things in the forms isn't enough. The forms are the beginning. You need to isolate these particular training methods and train them outside of the forms... a lot.
But the way you perform the forms generally, and as you train drills that require you to recycle the arms, etc, your learning arm methods and supporting body methods that take advantage of this relaxed use of force.
In a previous thread (many moons ago) I mentioned how the BT form has a different quality of power to it, and a few people laughed this off saying that it was hard enough to develop regular VT power, let alone adding in more power methods. But this is not really true, IMO, as this expression of power comes out naturally from the tendon training you do coupled with the particular torque and use of the spine in the BT form.
But I type all of this and I know the response that is coming from some - it is all just BS from Leung Ting.
Not going to give our thinking for huen and distract all that tendon work : )
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No. You are dense. Don't assume you know what I do without having ever seen me or crossed arms with me. And don't ask, because at this point I don't care to carry on any further discussion with you.
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Once again you show....you are dense!Stories
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No, don't try to talk sense to him Rett. He has proven he won't listen.
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