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Thread: WSL on LSJC

  1. #1
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    WSL on LSJC

    As I explained in a previous thread, LSJC literally refers to the opponent's arm leaving yours in the name and what sort of automatic behavior should result, i.e. 'thrust forward upon loss of contact'.

    This has as much to do with a springing energy effect as a result of constant forward intent as it does with moving the entire body structure forward as a unit, as it is an effect of that. Yet the springing energy is for some reason denied by PB students here. For example:

    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H
    LSJC has been roughly translated to "loss of contact, thrust forward without hesitation". People wrongly assume that the "loss of contact" bit means that we already have arm contact and when it is released we should thrust forward using some kind of springy energy. That is a common misconception in Wing Chun.
    You may need to go back and have a deeper discussion with PB, or admit that this is an element apparently missing in your understanding of WSL VT. Unless you think WSL was a victim of that same "misconception". When I suggested PB may have misinterpreted the meaning of LSJC, based on your words as his student, I got a response of OMFG!

    Well...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOSpET3SJu4

    In this video @8:10-10:40, WSL explains why the first section of SNT must be done slowly, saying that it requires "li shou zhi chong" (Mandarin for lat sau jik chung). "What is LSJC" he explains in three parts;

    (My rough translation.)
    "When our arms are connected and his arm suddenly leaves to attack me this way, a lot of people do this (block the arm). This is the normal reaction. Afraid to get hit they'll use some action to protect themselves. If I don't protect myself when he attacks me I thrust into him. This sort of action violates that normal response.

    "Also if his power is pressing on my arm, when released my arm will shoot up. So the elbow must be placed on the center line. (9:40) If he presses on my arm and then leaves, my arm will have a slight tendency to thrust forward. If not, with my elbow here (off center), when he leaves my arm it will go upward.

    "So training slowly is to focus one's intent on forwarding toward the enemy. In VT this is 'chiu-ying'. That is at any time you are aiming at the enemy, not off to the side, or even further away, but always aimed at them. So when facing you must launch from your center line and attack the opponent's center. This is the most important requirement in VT."


    -The first part explains constant forward force, as not the natural tendency.
    -The second part explains the springing energy effect it has upon loss of contact with proper elbow position.
    -The third part explains how to develop it in form and apply it in fighting.

    To other non-WSLVT practitioners, this is training to develop an automatic mindless response, a result of constant forward force, not to be confused with sensing and responding to the opponent's energy, or even looking to contact in the first place.

    If the PB guys are applying proper forward force they'll get this springing effect. If this effect is not happening for them, something is wrong with forwarding energy. Just offering forth the suggestion, from WSL, for possible advancement. Do with it what you will.
    Last edited by LFJ; 08-13-2013 at 01:02 AM.

  2. #2
    Jesus! Get over it dude.

    LSJC used in this context is a development drill for beginners in chi sau to learn not to retract the hand before punching and start the process of not chasing or fighting the arms. During chi sau practice we are in contact and the idea of taking the arm away so that your training partner can train the correct punching behaviour is vital. Contact is removed and the punch is trained. It's a drill but the behaviour of the punch is improved through this drill.

    Later on down the line this idea of LSJC progresses and like the rest of the system things are added so that the end result is a fully functioning Ving Tsun fighting system. The pivot, step and strategy are all added and all need LSJC inside.
    One of the great things about LSJC is that is does teach you to navigate through all the mess whilst driving forward but its not only about impeding arms.

    There are many drills and training methods within the system that improve and correct actions. they are not fighting methods. They are tools. If your Sifu has not seen the complete picture or missed certain things the tools become interpreted as something else. This is always the problem.

    We learn later that LSJC is about the whole body behaviour but of course in the beginning when we are learning we have to get the arms correct. The structures built through hours of training allows us to use them correctly.

    What you see in WSL videos is him explaining a very small part of LSJC. A few more months/years down the line you will see the rest.

    In SLT we start to develop LSJC but where is the contact then? There is none so is not LSJC??

    I don't need to have a "deeper" conversation with PB mate. I know what I'm on about and have seen the full process. It seems you have not.

    When PB first asked me what I thought LSJC was I said it was loss of contact with the arms thrust forward using springy energy. He then proceeded to teach me a new idea. One that made perfect sense and things that I had never experienced before. Before then how could I know any different??????

    Maybe you should spend less time writing and invest your time into going to see what PB does first hand before making assumptions based on video footage.

    I shouldn't be saying this to you. You are in the WSLVT lineage. You should not be so blind! There is more information out there that you have not been exposed to!
    Last edited by Graham H; 08-13-2013 at 01:30 AM.

  3. #3
    Btw before you start writing a long drawn out post about how you may disagree with me can I just say that regardless of who is wrong or who is right (if at all) I prefer PB's WSLVT for his fighting and his thinking. IMO its second to none so differences in opinion really don't mean much to me.

    When I read your post it was like what I would have wrote 5 years ago

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H View Post
    What you see in WSL videos is him explaining a very small part of LSJC. A few more months/years down the line you will see the rest.
    I agree. It seems what happened with you though was when PB explained it further to you, you took it as a replacement rather than expansion.

    In SLT we start to develop LSJC but where is the contact then? There is none so is not LSJC??
    In form it is training proper elbow position and focusing intent so that in chi-sau and ultimately fighting the effect will be able to function.

  5. #5
    I agree. It seems what happened with you though was when PB explained it further to you, you took it as a replacement rather than expansion.
    How can you know this when you haven't seen it first hand? I didn't replace it. It was definatley and expansion and it made me realize that this whole thing about different people having different levels of knowledge based on their contact with WSL plus their physical and mental abilities was definately true.

    In form it is training proper elbow position and focusing intent so that in chi-sau and ultimately fighting the effect will be able to function.
    Yes correct and we also learn not to hesitate and be affected by incoming strikes. In this context our natural responses are changed and improved for the fight. Our normal response is to cower away and "defend". we must learn to intercept an attack with our own and that means attack it (Loi Lau)

    This is also what blind fold training improves for the student that has no courage.

    Let me ask you this.....if you were told that that "loss of contact thrust forward with out hesitation" was a rough translation of a Cantonese kung fu maxim then you saw a few guys in the corner doing poon sau what would you think it related to and/or you weren't taught anything past a basic chi sau drill? It's easy to see how things can break down

    There is a bigger picture mate. A bigger picture that PB had been exposed to and some others had not.
    Last edited by Graham H; 08-13-2013 at 01:59 AM.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H View Post
    How can you know this when you haven't seen it first hand? I didn't replace it. It was definatley and expansion and it made me realize that this whole thing about different people having different levels of knowledge based on their contact with WSL plus their physical and mental abilities was definately true.
    I was basing it on your previous statement;

    "People wrongly assume that the "loss of contact" bit means that we already have arm contact and when it is released we should thrust forward using some kind of springy energy. That is a common misconception in Wing Chun."

    If you didn't replace it then you should still have this concept and not mean it is a misconception. That certainly is what it means, both literally and in function. It is a misconception to 'only' understand this much without understanding the driving force which causes this effect, which is LLHS or constant forward force. That is the main ingredient.

    Let me ask you this.....if you were told that that "loss of contact thrust forward with out hesitation" was a rough translation of a Cantonese kung fu maxim then you saw a few guys in the corner doing poon sau what would you think it related to and/or you weren't taught anything past a basic chi sau drill? It's easy to see how things can break down
    I would understand it to mean exactly what it says, quite clearly. I'd be looking for forward energy and lots of striking taking place instead of following arms around, which is definitely what I see in PB's videos.

  7. #7
    I was basing it on your previous statement;

    People wrongly assume that the "loss of contact" bit means that we already have arm contact and when it is released we should thrust forward using some kind of springy energy. That is a common misconception in Wing Chun."
    You just don't get it do you? Ok no problem. I prefer PB's ideas. End of.

    If you didn't replace it then you should still have this concept and not mean it is a misconception. That certainly is what it means, both literally and in function. It is a misconception to 'only' understand this much without understanding the driving force which causes this effect, which is LLHS or constant forward force. That is the main ingredient.
    I don't expect you to all of a sudden admit you may not be right. You know what I did when I didn't believe PB's students to be correct? I found there ideas not to be the same as David Petersons..................... I went and found out for myself and then I became a student again rather than a Teacher. I had to tell al my students that I was doing it wrong and I needed to start from scratch. Many of them left. You do the maths!

    I would understand it to mean exactly what it says, quite clearly. I'd be looking for forward energy and lots of striking taking place instead of following arms around, which is definitely what I see in PB's videos.
    This is your problem. You have made an incomplete interpretation based on what you have been exposed to and nothing else.
    Last edited by Graham H; 08-13-2013 at 02:41 AM.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H View Post
    I don't expect you to all of a sudden admit you may not be right.
    Likewise. I just find it odd you can make completely contradictory statements yet stick to them both at the same time.

    If it were anyone else standing there teaching the same thing, and not WSL, no doubt you'd say they were wrong. Now to work his teaching back into your philosophy you contradict your previous statement that it is a misconception.

    It must not be easy being you.

  9. #9
    I don't contradict myself you muppett. You are starting to sound like BPWT!

    All I'm saying is that unless you have been exposed to many months/years of tuition and from either WSL or PB then how can you know anything. All you have is second hand information and video footage to trawl and unfortunately for you that is not enough.

    Shawn Obassi said it right in his video. Unless you are there you will not know. Please take that advice and stop dragging this out. It has been done to death.

    It's boring.

    When you have met PB (if you ever do) or talked to him about what WSL taught and why then you will be able to have a proper discussion. Until then no point BPWT.....I mean LFJ

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H View Post
    I don't contradict myself
    Well then, is it a misconception to you or isn't it?

    All I'm saying is that unless you have been exposed to many months/years of tuition and from either WSL or PB then how can you know anything.
    I don't think PB is the sole inheritor of correct WSLVT. He wouldn't have recommended another teacher to me.

    Shawn Obassi said it right in his video. Unless you are there you will not know.
    Seal the Deal was talking about feeling power or stiffness from someone which can't be seen on video.

    WSL was talking to the camera as if we were standing there watching and listening. He clearly explained and demonstrated something you previously said was a common misconception. Do you retract that statement?

  11. #11
    Well then, is it a misconception to you or isn't it?
    I'm not denying what WSL is teaching. I'm saying that he is teaching something that is for developing beginners. A time frame you seem to be stuck in.

    I don't think PB is the sole inheritor of correct WSLVT. He wouldn't have recommended another teacher to me.
    I didn't say he was the sole inheritor. I'm saying that what he teaches is head and shoulders above what a lot of other WSL teachers are teaching and also his level of skill I have yet to see something better.
    WSL was talking to the camera as if we were standing there watching and listening. He clearly explained and demonstrated something you previously said was a common misconception. Do you retract that statement?
    No I f***ing do not! You are starting to annoy me.

    Who is your Sifu!? I have asked you this before and you haven't replied. What lineage are you?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H View Post
    I'm not denying what WSL is teaching. I'm saying that he is teaching something that is for developing beginners. A time frame you seem to be stuck in.
    You denied the hell out of it all over the place on these forums, until you saw WSL teaching it. Then a misconception became something to develop beginners.

    Similar to how blindfolded chi-sau was absolute bullsh!t to you until you saw WSL doing it and went to ask PB. Then bullsh!t became a useful training tool for certain cases.

    Who is your Sifu!? I have asked you this before and you haven't replied. What lineage are you?
    As I said, I've studied with several WSLVT people in HK. One in particular was recommended to me by PB as being closest to his thinking. You can guess who.

  13. #13
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    Hi Guys,

    I am not WSL lineage but have experineced several teahcers from that family. This does not do much to help wing chun or the WSL lineage.

    Each teacher will put their own mind into wing chun, I think PB is a great example but I also think that WSL students are very skillful and teach the core WSL stuff so as long as you have a legitimate teacher its up to you to develop.

    Paul
    www.moifa.co.uk

  14. #14
    You denied the hell out of it all over the place on these forums, until you saw WSL teaching it. Then a misconception became something to develop beginners.
    I'd already saw WSL teaching it! I also have the liberty of asking somebody who was taught by him what the thinking is behind it.

    Similar to how blindfolded chi-sau was absolute bullsh!t to you until you saw WSL doing it and went to ask PB. Then bullsh!t became a useful training tool for certain cases.
    Eh? What's wrong with that? I never have needed the blindfold and up until I asked PB I wasn't sure about the reasons why WSL was using it. It was for marketing (which is something I don't agree with) but it can also help students train away a certain problem. What I was rubbishing was people thinking it is used to become more sensitive to "arm energies"

    As I said, I've studied with several WSLVT people in HK. One in particular was recommended to me by PB as being closest to his thinking. You can guess who.
    I would guess Tommy Yuen (RIP) or maybe Tai Hap. Why is it such a struggle for you to say?

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Paul T England View Post
    This does not do much to help wing chun or the WSL lineage.
    Ha! Does anything on this forum help any lineage?

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