WSL on LSJC

[k gledhill]

Abstract combat ideas are not easy to convey.

[Shads]

Abstract combat ideas are not easy to convey.

There is nothing abstract in Wing Chun everything should be able to be explained through physics and biomechanics and then demonstrated through application. Abstract concepts belong in the same box as deadly dim mak and no touch knockouts. Calling things abstract concepts is the **** poor instructor's way of covering for the fact that they don't know what they're talking about or simply building up layers of bull.

[tc101]

There is nothing abstract in Wing Chun everything should be able to be explained through physics and biomechanics and then demonstrated through application. Abstract concepts belong in the same box as deadly dim mak and no touch knockouts. Calling things abstract concepts is the **** poor instructor's way of covering for the fact that they don't know what they're talking about or simply building up layers of bull.

I agree and do not think things even need to be explained in terms of physics and biomechanics which generally are wrong anyway. They seem to do alright in boxing and muay thai and wrestling and judo and on and on and on without bringing in that sort of thing. It is a simple this is what you do and this is how you do it. When people need to bring in abstract concepts and physics to explain simple things there is a problem.

[guy b.]

I agree and do not think things even need to be explained in terms of physics and biomechanics which generally are wrong anyway. They seem to do alright in boxing and muay thai and wrestling and judo and on and on and on without bringing in that sort of thing. It is a simple this is what you do and this is how you do it. When people need to bring in abstract concepts and physics to explain simple things there is a problem.

How could we forget the way that the infamous 'conceptless wing chun' has blazed a trail of glory through the world of martial arts? Oh wait..

[guy b.]

Lol at the idea of the anonymous tc101, a person unable even to identify a youtube clip of wing chun that he finds acceptable, banging it out in the gym weekly with boxers and mma exponents, dropping all the bull$hit principles, and making his wing chun function against top fighter after top fighter, simply by doing. All he wants is to help us mortals wake up and smell the freedom that comes from dropping all of that oriental cr@p and turning our wing chun into western boxing with the hands turned through 90 degrees.

Despite the fact that he doesn't seem to know much about wing chun, he is really a wing chun messiah and we should welcome his totally anonymous and frankly unlikely sounding solution to all of our problems. Who knew?

[k gledhill]

There is nothing abstract in Wing Chun everything should be able to be explained through physics and biomechanics and then demonstrated through application. Abstract concepts belong in the same box as deadly dim mak and no touch knockouts. Calling things abstract concepts is the **** poor instructor's way of covering for the fact that they don't know what they're talking about or simply building up layers of bull.

Thanks that cleared up a lot ; )

[Graham H]

There is nothing abstract in Wing Chun everything should be able to be explained through physics and biomechanics and then demonstrated through application. Abstract concepts belong in the same box as deadly dim mak and no touch knockouts. Calling things abstract concepts is the **** poor instructor's way of covering for the fact that they don't know what they're talking about or simply building up layers of bull.

You say that like you know what you're on about!

You don't! Move on

[Paddington]

Thanks for the interesting read LFJ. Would you be up for translating the entire video and other videos of WSL that require translation? I know WSL was never keen on videos but having decent translations available to us English speakers, may help clear up these confusions.

[LFJ]

Thanks for the interesting read LFJ. Would you be up for translating the entire video and other videos of WSL that require translation? I know WSL was never keen on videos but having decent translations available to us English speakers, may help clear up these confusions.

This is the only video I know where he speaks Mandarin, so I can understand everything. Explanations throughout are pretty brief though. Other videos are in Cantonese and I don't understand what he says completely.

[Paddington]

[...]
There is a bigger picture mate. A bigger picture that PB had been exposed to and some others had not.

I think it is about time that these ideas were articulated to the public by PB, BL and others rather than remaining behind a 'pay' or 'clique wall'. Granted,nothing beats face to face instruction but that does not stand in opposition to laying bare these concepts.

I am really interested in hearing about this bigger picture Graham. Would you share it with us in a more thorough manner?

[LFJ]

Abstract combat ideas are not easy to convey.

I don't think it's that abstract that it can't be easily conveyed. It's just when people aren't exposed to those ideas in their training, their blinders prevent them from following because their minds go another way.

My Cantonese isn't as good as my Mandarin, but I think in Mandarin the phrase makes more sense. Different characters are used. In Mandarin it is "li shou zhi chong". Li is a different character than Lat in Cantonese.

It can mean 'to depart from', in which case "thrust forward upon loss of contact" is a fair translation. This is the meaning WSL used in the video describing the springing energy effect caused by the forward intent and correct elbow position trained in SNT. This is a response we develop in beginning chi-sau stages. So to say it is for beginners is correct.

But this Li can also mean 'to be away from', in which case the implied meaning would be not only to thrust forward upon 'loss of contact' using that springing energy effect, but to pressure forward 'whenever the line is free', or in other words drive forward as you clear the line. Such an understanding would be more relevant to advanced chi-sau and gwo-sau stages.

My only confusion with Graham is that in his words that beginning stage, the springing energy effect, seemed to be replaced and considered wrong. In my experience it has been an integral part of the WSLVT system in every school, and is an effect that is never really lost. It just becomes a small part of something larger. It is after all an effect and not the main idea of the driving force. Outside of chi-sau it is less relevant but may still apply to fighting in certain instances.

[LFJ]

I think it is about time that these ideas were articulated to the public

I think you'll find that 'the public' is considered the enemy. Members only.

[Graham H]

I think it is about time that these ideas were articulated to the public by PB, BL and others rather than remaining behind a 'pay' or 'clique wall'. Granted,nothing beats face to face instruction but that does not stand in opposition to laying bare these concepts.

I am really interested in hearing about this bigger picture Graham. Would you share it with us in a more thorough manner?

They are but you have to go and learn and train with them in person. Too much stuff gets lost in translation and you can't feel any skill and power from internet writings and video footage.

You also have to remember that all of the video footage of WSL conducting seminars are a brief overview of his thinking on Ving Tsun. A quick run through the forms and a few ideas is all they are. Added to that is that most of them were shot in his latter years when his health wasn't so good.

This is the problem. People that hang on every word and try and copy things from video. It's not good.

[Graham H]

My only confusion with Graham is that in his words that beginning stage, the springing energy effect, seemed to be replaced and considered wrong. In my experience it has been an integral part of the WSLVT system in every school, and is an effect that is never really lost. It just becomes a small part of something larger. It is after all an effect and not the main idea of the driving force. Outside of chi-sau it is less relevant but may still apply to fighting in certain instances.

The only person that is confused is you because its not just my thinking is it? It's Philipp Bayers and all of his students from all over the world. many of them were taught personally by WSL via many hours training in the school and sat around the dinner table. I think I would rather believe all those guys than somebody that has little contact with anybody involved.

Would you not agree?

[Paddington]

They are but you have to go and learn and train with them in person. Too much stuff gets lost in translation and you can't feel any skill and power from internet writings and video footage.

You also have to remember that all of the video footage of WSL conducting seminars are a brief overview of his thinking on Ving Tsun. A quick run through the forms and a few ideas is all they are. Added to that is that most of them were shot in his latter years when his health wasn't so good.

This is the problem. People that hang on every word and try and copy things from video. It's not good.

I do not have the money or time to travel to train with those people. The only option available to me is to ask for written or even spoken and demonstrated videos to articulate the bigger picture that you speak of.