Power vs. Speed

[YouKnowWho]

I don't remember that we have discussed this subject before or not. It's a very important subject anyway.

This is the general MA trade off issue. The praying mantis is very fast but the power is not all there.

Praying Mantis Kung Fu - Brendan Lai Meihua Quan - YouTube

The Baji is very powerful but the speed is not all there.

Baji quan--Adam Hsu - YouTube

The reason is simple. If you compress to the maximum and then release, you will generate the maximum amount of power. Unfortunately in combat, you don't have that luxury to obtain a full "compression".

If you look at Chenyu's and CXW's power generation. It takes them about 1 second to generate power for each of their strikes. That 1 second is just too slow in normal combat.

Chen taiji quan fajin by Chenyu 陈�太�拳 - YouTube

https://myspace.com/431083890/video/...hniques/330713

Even the XingYi Liu He system, the power generation is still to slow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcqQ9KhMYFY

By comparing the most famous power generation systems in TCMA, the Baji, Chen Taiji, and XingYi Liu He, none of them can match with the speed generated in the praying mantis system.

This is why in the

- intermediate training stage, you want to use your body to push/pull your limbs. This way you can generate the maximum amount of power.
- advance training stage, you want to use your body to chase your limbs. This way you can generate the maximum amount of speed.

Here is a simple test. When a mosquito flies in front of you and you want to smash that mosquito, will you use your body to push your hand, or will you let your body to chase your hand? Which part of your body will move first? This is a good example that you want to achieve the maximum speed, but you have to sacrifice some of your power.

Since all TCMA styles will involve with power generation and speed generation issue, what's your opinion on this?

[RAF]

Thought about this for some time--how much power do you really need to be effective?

Usually a skilled mantis practitioner can strike areas that don't require much power to cause damage.

Some of the practitioners are fast and have substantial power--its not as though praying mantis practitioners have no power. One I observed training a friend of mine had both speed and effective striking power [Zhang Wei Fu, Taiji Meihua Praying Mantis}

I wonder if there is some way to train that results in the optimal combination of power and speed?

[Subitai]

I'm going to try to answer your question but i'm surprised as good as a grappler as you are...that you're asking this question?

If I want to use a standard type hip throw...do I just try to rush in and attempt to throw him? No, it won't work good that way and if you could do that, then your opponent just plain suks anyway.

The best way is to set him up....that's the way people with experience will do it. I'm sure someone with your experience agrees with me?


As for Taiji...same thing. The best way is to set up your opponent so that they are either off balance or they are overextended... and because there is a small time gap before they recover, then you have a chance to issue power.

I know how to do it and I can do it...fairly consistently. This is for sure MY preferred way to approach this problem and from what i've seen how most advanced people tackle it as well.

If it was just a trade of attempted blows then for sure that is low level thinking.


I've said this many times before..."Speed is only a perception of distance".

* If I start from far or long distance then yes I must be very fast but the closer I start from it is a different story.

Look at 2 heavy weight boxers fighting from about 10 rows back in the stands and they don't seem very fast. But stand in front of one and it makes all the difference in the world how fast he seems.

In most kung fu styles there are movements that I call primary (meaning they move along quicker beats of time) and secondary (usually slower and work better after a bridge is made for example)

Most people run into problems because they havn't figured this out and are using methods that they don't fully understand in the wrong usage.

My opinion. "O"

[YouKnowWho]

Thought about this for some time--how much power do you really need to be effective?

Agree!. 50 lbs force on the nose or 100 lbs force on the nose don't make much different.

The best way is to set him up....

I totally agree that the "set up" can be use to "full compress". Here is a simple example. If you have right leg forward and left hand forward (I'll call this "cross stance"), you are ready to deliver that powerful right punch anytime you want to. Your fighting stance is your "full compression".

I don't thing speed is that critical for the grappling art. When you use your leg to bite on your opponent's leading leg, you have to wait for him to pull that leading leg back so you can attack his back leg. If you move too fast that his weight is still on his leading leg when you attack his back leg, your speed won't mean anything.

[Kellen Bassette]

There is always a trade off between speed and power. Some teach that speed=power, but this really is not the case in a combat scenario.

Jab and cross are the classic scenario, fast sets up strong. Both should be trained for their proper context. Jab, back fist, snap kick are fast, they open the door for power....cross, hook, round kick, thrust kick....we need both.

[Jimbo]

I don't remember that we have discussed this subject before or not. It's a very important subject anyway.

This is the general MA trade off issue. The praying mantis is very fast but the power is not all there.

This is why in the

- intermediate training stage, you want to use your body to push/pull your limbs. This way you can generate the maximum amount of power.
- advance training stage, you want to use your body to chase your limbs. This way you can generate the maximum amount of speed.

Here is a simple test. When a mosquito flies in front of you and you want to smash that mosquito, will you use your body to push your hand, or will you let your body to chase your hand? Which part of your body will move first? This is a good example that you want to achieve the maximum speed, but you have to sacrifice some of your power.

Since all TCMA styles will involve with power generation and speed generation issue, what's your opinion on this?

Very interesting subject, and some good points you make.

Different things for different purposes.

I know this might upset or annoy some, because this subject is regarding TCMA, but possibly the greatest example of the combination of both speed (incredible speed) and outstanding power for all to see was the prime Mike Tyson:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9xIi86hUOos&sns=em

Of course, he was a freak of nature. But he understood when to turn on his full speed and/or full power, and when not to. He embodied many of the TCMA principles very clearly, even though he didn't use the terminology.

In addition, sometimes a change of speed and/or rhythm can throw off even a much quicker opponent.

[Rover]

Hitting fast better than a pao blow if you going on deadly point like neck.
Otherwise pao would be better.

[Yum Cha]

Speed to set up and injure, power to finish.
If you strike with accuracy, you need less power.

I also beiieve that SPM like Pak Mei, doesn't chamber the fist, they strike from in front of the body. Hands are closer, less telegraph, greater perception of speed.

[xinyidizi]

@YKW: I think you are not very familiar with XYLH. Speed training and quick small frame combos are an essential part of XYLH after the basics are mastered.

[YouKnowWho]

@YKW: I think you are not very familiar with XYLH. Speed training and quick small frame combos are an essential part of XYLH after the basics are mastered.

I'm not! XYLH is a style that I would love to cross train. The speed is a relative term and not an absolute term.

[YouKnowWho]

This is one of my favor power generation drills.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XMhfuDJgo0

[-N-]

This is one of my favor power generation drills.

Do body striking on the heavy bag.

[YouKnowWho]

Do body striking on the heavy bag.

That's one of my heavy bag drills as well. I may not put all my power on my 1st punch (cross), but I do try to put all my power on my 2nd punch (jab - not sure jab is a proper term for it).

[mooyingmantis]

In mantis, power is relative. The two dominant striking areas are the eyes and the groin, Neither require much power, but both require great speed. Mantis is primarily a point striking art. We are not just trying to hit "something", we are aiming at specific points (8 hit, 8 no hit). So precision is important.

I emphasize gaining power by increasing speed.

If you practice in a school that emphasizes punching "to the head" or "to the body", rather than specific points on both, power comes much more into play. Lack of precision requires more power to get the same disabling effect.

[mooyingmantis]

This is one of my favor power generation drills.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XMhfuDJgo0

Very "baji" of you! If baji can be used as an adjective, of course.