Wing Chun Interactions, the key to individual expression

[LFJ]

In Wslpbvt chi sao is a learning environment.....In other lineages it seems to be an ego driven pi$$ing contest.

You can see with Philipp, Shawn is being taught and helped.
With the others its the usual two handed arm wrestling proving ground

Chi-sau is developmental unique to each lineage. For that reason no one should chi-sau with others outside their lineage, because neither understands the other's method. It just becomes, as you say, a proving ground.

If they want to test their skills against other lineages, their testing ground should be in free sparring. Unfortunately, free sparring seems to be very rarely done in most Wing Chun lineages. Chi-sau is king.

[BPWT]

You can see with Philipp, Shawn is being taught and helped.
With the others its the usual two handed arm wrestling proving ground

To be fair, Boztepe was talking throughout the clip shown, showing and explaining.

[GlennR]

Chi-sau is developmental unique to each lineage. For that reason no one should chi-sau with others outside their lineage, because neither understands the other's method. It just becomes, as you say, a proving ground.

What a load of nonsense, thats like saying boxers from different gyms shouldnt hold pads for eachother

If they want to test their skills against other lineages, their testing ground should be in free sparring. Unfortunately, free sparring seems to be very rarely done in most Wing Chun lineages. Chi-sau is king.

Ive had great experiences with schools comparing techniques, ideas , power generation, footwork and son on without having to spar.

Thats a limited view you have

[Paddington]

Chi-sau is developmental unique to each lineage. For that reason no one should chi-sau with others outside their lineage, because neither understands the other's method. It just becomes, as you say, a proving ground. [...]

I don't know. I have been lucky in that I have, now, been able to chi sau with people from many different lineages. Our dispositions have all been very positive and the only trouble or difficulty in chi sau we have experienced, has been the fact that we do it differently and some translation has to occur before it becomes a mutual conversation.

[LoneTiger108]

So looking at the posts am I right in thinking that most of you can identify lineage through watching students practise Chisau?

I know we all have differences but it would be interesting to hear if anyone has written a summary of each lineages characteristics, and as there are clearly variations within a lineage has anyone written a comparison?

It would be great if Shaun himself has documented his own opinions of his experiences but maybe we could work on something here with contributions by everyone.

[k gledhill]

So looking at the posts am I right in thinking that most of you can identify lineage through watching students practise Chisau?

I know we all have differences but it would be interesting to hear if anyone has written a summary of each lineages characteristics, and as there are clearly variations within a lineage has anyone written a comparison?

It would be great if Shaun himself has documented his own opinions of his experiences but maybe we could work on something here with contributions by everyone.

Should all be the same.

[LoneTiger108]

Should all be the same.

Kinda what I thought when I was training with Sifu and had never seen anyone else! But the facts are right in front of us. We are not the same so what is the best way forward?

If there are massive positives to all interactions we see, and negatives too of course, what would the ultimate 'blended' interaction actually look and feel like?

Just on a question spree of late and as a student and journeyman I would want to read a bit of decent research on this type of subject rather than participate in all the craziness and negativity I have seen more of lately

[LoneTiger108]

Hmmm... Maybe I should have started this thread saying that ALL the interactions of Chisau in the clip are WRONG and that I have the only true complete Wing Chun interaction that nobody has even seen yet

Seems that a decent discussion is impossible these days...

[LFJ]

I don't know. I have been lucky in that I have, now, been able to chi sau with people from many different lineages. Our dispositions have all been very positive and the only trouble or difficulty in chi sau we have experienced, has been the fact that we do it differently and some translation has to occur before it becomes a mutual conversation.

All I have to say is people need to quit chi-sauing and get out there and spar or actually fight. If it's all about chi-sau and when you meet another WC practitioner you say hey let's chi-sau then it just becomes your favorite game. You're goal is just to get better at chi-sau and you lose sight of the real goal of training; fight survival. WC is then no longer a fighting method.

Chi-sau is a mutual developmental tool used in training within your lineage to train the fighting skills your lineage seeks to develop. There's no point in doing the drill with someone who has completely different thinking, lest it become a competitive game or just something fun to do.

WC practitioners from other lineages should first say hey let's spar/fight like meeting anyone from any other martial art. But I kind of fear no one actually knows what that is.

[LoneTiger108]

Chi-sau is a mutual developmental tool used in training within your lineage to train the fighting skills your lineage seeks to develop. There's no point in doing the drill with someone who has completely different thinking, lest it become a competitive game or just something fun to do.

Forgetting the 'fight' for a second, I was always of the belief that Wing Chun Chisau, as it is generally practised from Ip Man and others, was designed for students to play and search for answers in a non-competitive and fun way.

Agreed sparring is a different animal, and so is fighting, which both benefit from Chisau practise when trained well enough, but I was really looking for input here from people who can actually appreciate our signature and speciality.

Why is there so much difference in all of us and does this mean we are all missing something of the bigger picture? After all, it is accepted by the majority I reckon that we can only truly learn and exchange, as Wing Chun students and teachers, from 'touching hands'. Right?

[Grumblegeezer]

....After all, it is accepted by the majority I reckon that we can only truly learn and exchange, as Wing Chun students and teachers, from 'touching hands'. Right?

It depends less on lineage than the personality and ego of the person you choose to train with. With the right person it can work fine. Attitude is everything.

[LoneTiger108]

It depends less on lineage than the personality and ego of the person you choose to train with. With the right person it can work fine. Attitude is everything.

Well said.

It's just that looking through this forum and seeing even further debates on things like Facebook you would think that everybody wants Wing Chun to be divided into little lineage boxes for everyone to identify and talk sh1t about lol!

Now I'm a lineage type guy, I appreciate my heritage in that way, loyal to only one teacher too, but it doesn't make me automatically look for the negatives in everything I see, in fact quite the opposite.

I see many good things with the original clip on the thread, minus certain attitudes. So I guess nobody has the answers for me here. Everybody is happy being so divided?

[LFJ]

So I guess nobody has the answers for me here. Everybody is happy being so divided?

I am happy to consider different lineages to be indeed different systems. While sharing the same form names and whatnot, they can be so different in execution and interpretation that they may as well be different martial art systems altogether. That's not just me wanting to be divisive. That's just the way it is.

[LoneTiger108]

I am happy to consider different lineages to be indeed different systems. While sharing the same form names and whatnot, they can be so different in execution and interpretation that they may as well be different martial art systems altogether. That's not just me wanting to be divisive. That's just the way it is.

And I understand this, which brings me back to the Title of this Thread...

So, on review it isn't just about the interactive platforms being a key to individual expression, we seem to have individual expression of all the forms too then we will have individual expression of the equipment and weaponry we use right?

What a mess