The hands we use...

[BPWT]

So after I stopped laughing , still laughing !! Are these your hands in chi sao ? ; )

http://youtu.be/faDIYG6QZsY

Well, I can't comment on the Italian lovers in the lake...

But the WT in the clip is primarily just working Bong, Lap and Punch (so not an attempt to use all the hands). The point of the drill, in this case, is to do it at speed - to get you to 'touch and go'. It is simply a drill/exercise for reaction.

So it takes one of the ideas behind Bong, and gets you to play with it without the 'prolonged contact' that people sometimes feel, incorrectly IMO, is in Chi Sau. So just one drill (actually, just a part of a drill) and done in a particular way.

Here's a clip that shows a slower, more teaching-based approach, to using some WT ideas in Bong/Lap. And these included a few "add ins" to get you playing with a few different 'hands'. This type of drill will also be ramped up once you've got the basics down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNPfcvosFGI

And little more detail here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXTxsd9CRKQ

[BPWT]

I think this can be one problem with watching videos online - people sometimes only focus on shapes and techniques and not catch what's most important: things like strategy, tactics, body methods/mechanics, etc.

I often times run class where I don't mention ANY techniques except maybe what kind of attack your partner is throwing. But, I do mention things like reference points, leverage, centerline occupation, gate & box theories, descriptions of body mechanics, facing, etc.

Yes, I agree.

I simply mention the 'hands' as this is a way we can talk online and reference something particular. So I was saying the training is really about understanding how to deal with different force (direction of force, amount of force) and the varying positions that lead to this and come from this. (so yes, strategy, tactics, body methods and mechanics, etc, are a part of this).

[Shads]

Shads , this guys all have their own way of doing chi sau , chi sau is the wing chun version of pushing hands like in tai chi , the difference is that tai chi you would push against eachother , that ' s why its called pushing hands for tai chi . Trying to push our partners off balance , but in return our partners can disolve our pushing and send the power back to us and we send it back vise versa .

Chi Sau we roll as we are doing chi sau both clock wise and counter wise , during those rolls we can attempt to throw our partners off balance by trapping their hands , and apply hand strikes to any part of their upperbody like face , chest , or we can just choose to throw our partners off balance . By using our hands and arms .

And the way they ' re explaining their own way of doing chi sao is confusing , to me a punch is a punch . For chi sao the bong , taun , fook is used , if you know your wing chun hand strikes you can use it too .

Shads , if you ' re training in WC now ? Use what your sifu has taught you . Some of these WC hand techniques taun , bong , fook , downward and cross pak sao , bil jee , low bong , kwan sao , are all used for certain defensive moves , while the vertical fist , back fist , vertical , horizontal , downward palm , bil jee , side of the hand , elbows , knees , as you know is used for striking . bil jee as an example can be used for blocking and jabbing at your opponents eyes or any weak spots .
If you know your WC kicks too , you should have no problem .

The Sil Lum Tao , Chum Kiu , and Bil Jee all have different qualities and techniques , design for anybody to learn and use if they need to . But like any other martial arts system or style practice is the mainthing . People can make people confusing so if you know the WC hand defensive techniques , striking techniques , kicks , and how to use elbows and knees , you should have no problem . So if you know WC in and out you should be able to know what I ' m really talking about .

WTF?????? how does your post relate in any way to my previous post????

[GlennR]

So after I stopped laughing , still laughing !! Are these your hands in chi sao ? ; )

http://youtu.be/faDIYG6QZsY

Thats pretty funny...... how did you get PB and LT in a lake at the same time??

[BPWT]

Thats pretty funny...... how did you get PB and LT in a lake at the same time??

They told LT there was a new franchise opportunity there, and they told PB he'd learn the secret to using more than just Pak Da.



Larry.

[GlennR]

They told LT there was a new franchise opportunity there, and they told PB he'd learn the secret to using more than just Pak Da.



Larry.

Bwahahahahahhahahah!

[tc101]

In the WSL rant thread Graham posted something interesting from a PB article about what some of the Sau motions are for in his teaching.



Which made me think about what we use in our Chi Sau training, and how this might translate to actual use. Of course, it's clear that different lineages do Chi Sau with different reasoning in mind, but in my lineage (as an example), we're looking to learn how to strike whilst dealing with force. The Chi Sau training leads to the Lat Sau training which leads to the sparring, which (one hopes) gives a good foundation for real world use.

So my question is (to anyone, not just the PB guys), when you train Chi Sau and when you train whatever other drills to help you put your WC/VT/WT into real world use, what 'hands' (so to speak) are you using?

I said of the PB training:



So in my lineage, our Chi Sau training (and here I include the Bong/Lap cycle and its progressions, Poon Sau, our Chi Sau sections, Gor Sau, and so on), and thus also in our Lat Sau training, we look to understand and learn how to use (often based on handling force), the following:

Tan Sau Bong Sau Fook Sau Wu Sau Man Sau Kau Sau Jum Sau
Gaun Sau Gwat Sau Jut Sau Huen Sau Pak Sau Lan Sau Tok Sau
Tie Sau Gum Sau Kwan Sau Biu Sau

Plus, of course, the various striking techniques using the hands, feet, knees, elbows, shoulder.

Here is what I learned and when I say learned I do not mean told but what I have observed to be true though my own experience.

A lot of the problems I see in these discussions come from not looking at things fom a fighting perspective but from a practice perspective which is this is what and how I practice so it must be like that when I fight. Things do not work that way.

When you fight you are going to either be on the outside or the inside, and the tactics and techniques are different for each. For example when on the outside GENERALLY you want to use one hand techniques and not throw both hands into action like simul blocks and strikes with a tan da or guan da or whatever. Those are very difficult and risky to pull off and leave you exposed. The mun sau as taught with a leading and a rear guarding hand references wing chun on the outside. There are exceptions to the general rule including if the opponent telegraphs or is slow or you use the two hands to wedge in.

On the inside GENERALLY you want and need to use both hands at the same time. This is where the simul blocks and strikes work, where bridging actions and controls are used and so forth.

I often see wing chun inside tactics and techniques demonstrated and taught when the practitioner is on the outside. Then they try to make those things work in sparring, finds they do not work, and throw the baby out.

Chi sau is a drill or practice that references wing chun on the inside because here it comes here it comes when you do chi sau you ARE on the inside. As I learned wing chun the preference range was on the inside and in the pocket so we had chi sau to practice inside and a drill called dop sau which was practice using wing chun outside techniques and tactics to get inside or what some call closing or bridging the gap. I saw a A Fong video where he had a similar drill but he called it mun sau drill. A rose though is still a rose.

PB seems to focus his system mainly on outside wing chun tactics and techniques. Nothing wrong with that.

[Yoshiyahu]

I agree, very very good response...

Here is what I learned and when I say learned I do not mean told but what I have observed to be true though my own experience.

A lot of the problems I see in these discussions come from not looking at things fom a fighting perspective but from a practice perspective which is this is what and how I practice so it must be like that when I fight. Things do not work that way.

When you fight you are going to either be on the outside or the inside, and the tactics and techniques are different for each. For example when on the outside GENERALLY you want to use one hand techniques and not throw both hands into action like simul blocks and strikes with a tan da or guan da or whatever. Those are very difficult and risky to pull off and leave you exposed. The mun sau as taught with a leading and a rear guarding hand references wing chun on the outside. There are exceptions to the general rule including if the opponent telegraphs or is slow or you use the two hands to wedge in.

On the inside GENERALLY you want and need to use both hands at the same time. This is where the simul blocks and strikes work, where bridging actions and controls are used and so forth.

I often see wing chun inside tactics and techniques demonstrated and taught when the practitioner is on the outside. Then they try to make those things work in sparring, finds they do not work, and throw the baby out.

Chi sau is a drill or practice that references wing chun on the inside because here it comes here it comes when you do chi sau you ARE on the inside. As I learned wing chun the preference range was on the inside and in the pocket so we had chi sau to practice inside and a drill called dop sau which was practice using wing chun outside techniques and tactics to get inside or what some call closing or bridging the gap. I saw a A Fong video where he had a similar drill but he called it mun sau drill. A rose though is still a rose.

PB seems to focus his system mainly on outside wing chun tactics and techniques. Nothing wrong with that.

[LaRoux]

Chi sao teaches fighting techniques that are only utilized in non-sporting, life and death situations in which there are no video recording capabilities around. If it is a sporting event, or not a life and death situation, or a video is recording it, the principles learned in chi sao cannot be performed in fighting situations.

[lance]

WTF?????? how does your post relate in any way to my previous post????

Shads , I ' m explaining to you the way WC is ?
WTF do you think I was explaining to you ??? WTF are you really doing on this thread ??? You criticize the other people on this thread ? You more confusing you don ' t know a **** thing about WC , I know about WC because I do it .
Don ' t be a WC wannabe you ' ll get into trouble ? But I won ' t waste my time on wannabes like you ?

[trubblman]

I dont think Tan Sau (only ) trains the punch. What a tan sau is to me: it takes the line, it's an entry, its a limb break ( in conjunction with another hand ), it releases a wrist grab, it redirects a strike, it transforms to a push or a strike. To say Tan Sau trains the punch means you have already placed a limit on your VT in my humble opinion. Besides if Tan Sau trains a punch, why are there punches in the form?

[wtxs]

I dont think Tan Sau (only ) trains the punch. What a tan sau is to me: it takes the line, it's an entry, its a limb break ( in conjunction with another hand ), it releases a wrist grab, it redirects a strike, it transforms to a push or a strike. To say Tan Sau trains the punch means you have already placed a limit on your VT in my humble opinion. Besides if Tan Sau trains a punch, why are there punches in the form?

How dare you go against the popular believe!

[GlennR]

I dont think Tan Sau (only ) trains the punch. What a tan sau is to me: it takes the line, it's an entry, its a limb break ( in conjunction with another hand ), it releases a wrist grab, it redirects a strike, it transforms to a push or a strike. To say Tan Sau trains the punch means you have already placed a limit on your VT in my humble opinion. Besides if Tan Sau trains a punch, why are there punches in the form?

Very well put.......... now prepare for a PB boy frenzied attack!

[Graham H]

Whatever Glenn. You know as much as them. It's understandable

[GlennR]

Whatever Glenn. You know as much as them. It's understandable

Gee, the frenzied attack took 30 seconds................ youre late!