Weapon Attack/ Destruction in Chi Sau

[Happy Tiger]

What do you guys think about the use of attacks to limbs in chi sau? In chi gerk, this idea is self evident.However attacking the arms this way seems to be seen as poor sport. What cha all think?

[Happy Tiger]

Sooooo, we have the jip sau of course, with its various uses but I think direct limb attack is under used in VT. Attack the attack. Is this a stale topic?

[k gledhill]

Bil gee uses the limb attack. I have injured boxers wrists , forearms easily so I have to tone down so I don't damage people. Gaan sao to a wrist / forearm is damaging. Jum sao too. Our punch forearm angle can cause forearm injuries if blocks are attempted. A lot of this is incidental. Arm chasing shouldnt be pursued to achieve this.

[Eric_H]

What do you guys think about the use of attacks to limbs in chi sau? In chi gerk, this idea is self evident.However attacking the arms this way seems to be seen as poor sport. What cha all think?

That's reasonably basic kung fu knowledge. All southern CMA do it.

[Wayfaring]

That's reasonably basic kung fu knowledge. All southern CMA do it.

yes and the Philipino arts as well - including weapons. "De-fanging the snake" is a common expression there for attacking a hand holding a weapon.

[Yoshiyahu]

Depending on how hard your opponent strikes when you deflect their attack your short power should cause a jolt of pain in their arm...the harder they swing or punch the more damage they will incur. We also utilize gaurding raking techniques for people who like to keep their hands covering their face as well as pak da and some other downward back fist strikes.

[Grumblegeezer]

yes and the Philipino arts as well - including weapons. "De-fanging the snake" is a common expression there for attacking a hand holding a weapon.

I agree with Kevin on this one. A lot of techniques will cause limb damage incidentally. But if you make that your intent, you will chase hands.

Forget that whole "defanging the snake" thing. When we found a rattler near the corrals at my grandad's ranch, we didn't chase it and try to pull out it's fangs. We just grabbed a shovel and smashed it's head.

The same is true in the Escrima I learned, as well as the VT I practice. Sure some of the techniques in both arts can be damaging to the limbs, but the whole our objective is always the "center of command". Shut that down and it's all over.

[Eric_H]

I agree with Kevin on this one. A lot of techniques will cause limb damage incidentally. But if you make that your intent, you will chase hands.

I think it's more of a "this is available right now so I'll do it" vs something you go into the situation looking to do. At least as far as WC is concerned.

A white crane guy i used to spar had this as a major strategy, it really made me rethink the usefulness of bai jong when you consider how available of a target it is.

[Wayfaring]

Forget that whole "defanging the snake" thing. When we found a rattler near the corrals at my grandad's ranch, we didn't chase it and try to pull out it's fangs. We just grabbed a shovel and smashed it's head.

The same is true in the Escrima I learned, as well as the VT I practice. Sure some of the techniques in both arts can be damaging to the limbs, but the whole our objective is always the "center of command". Shut that down and it's all over.

Actually with a bladed weapon, or a stick, there are many contact angles where you can slide straight down a block and attack a hand. Not chasing it at all. And the better guys will disarm someone with this type of strike, playing off a blocking impact and changing directions sliding down to attack the hand holding the weapon.

But sure, we should forget the whole thing. I'm sure Remy Presas and all the other
arnis instructors all have got it wrong, as they haven't studied VT. Dan Inosanto as well.

[KPM]

I kind of agree with the Geez. Why hit the opponent's arms when you can hit his head? Under certain circumstances it might work. Hawkins Cheung (being a small person) has taught a progressive striking of the arm of a much bigger opponent as he moved in close enough to hit him in the head. But if you are in Chi Sao range, you are already close enough to hit him in the head!
And its not that the FMA guys wrong, its just a different approach. The whole "defanging the snake" concept in FMA comes from weapons fighting, where it makes sense to attack the hand/arm holding the weapon in order to keep the weapon under control.

[LaRoux]

Actually with a bladed weapon, or a stick, there are many contact angles where you can slide straight down a block and attack a hand. Not chasing it at all. And the better guys will disarm someone with this type of strike, playing off a blocking impact and changing directions sliding down to attack the hand holding the weapon.

But sure, we should forget the whole thing. I'm sure Remy Presas and all the other
arnis instructors all have got it wrong, as they haven't studied VT. Dan Inosanto as well.

Defanging the snake only works when you have your own weapon to do it with. Even the hotshot fma guys can rarely do it unarmed against a weapon.

[tc101]

I kind of agree with the Geez. Why hit the opponent's arms when you can hit his head? Under certain circumstances it might work. Hawkins Cheung (being a small person) has taught a progressive striking of the arm of a much bigger opponent as he moved in close enough to hit him in the head. But if you are in Chi Sao range, you are already close enough to hit him in the head!
And its not that the FMA guys wrong, its just a different approach. The whole "defanging the snake" concept in FMA comes from weapons fighting, where it makes sense to attack the hand/arm holding the weapon in order to keep the weapon under control.

Defanging the snake does not even work in FMA that is another so called concept that has been blown all out of proportion. Just watch some dog bros videos to see that not in action. Of course I know evidence of actual fighting counts for so very very little around here especially when we can think of how it should work.

The reason to hit the arms is simple it is a tactic and gosh a tactic what a concept lol that can do several things from lowering his guard to obstructing his potential strikes to interrupting his set ups to all those things guys who do not spar never think or care about. So if you do not spar or fight it makes little sense when you think all you need to do is hit the guy in the head. They usually just stand there and let you after all. Even boxers use this tactic. Too bad no one told them about hitting the guy in the head.

[Kellen Bassette]

Kyokushin has interesting use of striking limbs intentionally. It is common for them to snipe the same spot on the forearm or wrist, it only takes a couple well placed shots for the arm to start getting raw. Then it starts to drop to end the bruising.

The trouble with this method is it is only useful if your opponent keeps a "textbook" style guard, (like you would expect from a trained fighter.) This is one of the rare methods that actually is of little use with MMA gloves and almost no use with boxing gloves, but it is a worthwhile strategy in its' time and place.

[GlennR]

Kyokushin has interesting use of striking limbs intentionally. It is common for them to snipe the same spot on the forearm or wrist, it only takes a couple well placed shots for the arm to start getting raw. Then it starts to drop to end the bruising.

The trouble with this method is it is only useful if your opponent keeps a "textbook" style guard, (like you would expect from a trained fighter.) This is one of the rare methods that actually is of little use with MMA gloves and almost no use with boxing gloves, but it is a worthwhile strategy in its' time and place.

And to add, boxers will also punch arms and shoulders

[lance]

What do you guys think about the use of attacks to limbs in chi sau? In chi gerk, this idea is self evident.However attacking the arms this way seems to be seen as poor sport. What cha all think?

Why not ? You first jam your opponents' hands , then you move in with kicking attack to his limbs .