Weapon Attack/ Destruction in Chi Sau

[KPM]

Defanging the snake does not even work in FMA that is another so called concept that has been blown all out of proportion. Just watch some dog bros videos to see that not in action. Of course I know evidence of actual fighting counts for so very very little around here especially when we can think of how it should work.

The reason to hit the arms is simple it is a tactic and gosh a tactic what a concept lol that can do several things from lowering his guard to obstructing his potential strikes to interrupting his set ups to all those things guys who do not spar never think or care about. So if you do not spar or fight it makes little sense when you think all you need to do is hit the guy in the head. They usually just stand there and let you after all. Even boxers use this tactic. Too bad no one told them about hitting the guy in the head.

I never know where you are coming from. Do you just try to be the "contrarian" in every single discussion?? Do you actually think that a solid strike to an opponent's unprotected weapon hand with a stick or blade wouldn't be a fight stopper? I would have expected you to jump in with saying that striking the arms in Chi Sao is armchair BS when one should be just striking to the head...like Boxers do! Yet you say the opposite.

[tc101]

I never know where you are coming from. Do you just try to be the "contrarian" in every single discussion??

Do not be confused let me explain I am not being a contrarian I just do not like arm chair opinions.

Come to think about it I am not sure you know what I mean by arm chair. Arm chair is when your opinion is based on thinking rather than actual experience. In this case you think that hitting the hand is 1 a good possibility and 2 a fight ender. That is what the guys who think they can bite or eye poky their way out of the ground. You both think this is how things work but and this is the important but but you think that from the safety of your arm chair. In neither instance is the opinion based on 1 what you yourself see from actually doing it or 2 see yourself from others actually doing it too. Arm chair is it works on paper. Experience is I am doing it and it works or me and others.

Do you actually think that a solid strike to an opponent's unprotected weapon hand with a stick or blade wouldn't be a fight stopper?

No it is not a fight stopper it happens all the time by accident let me repeat by accident in training and in stick fighting and it doesn't end the fight.

the important thing is that you will not see it intentionally used often in genuine stick fights since it is incredibly difficult to hit an opponent's hand so difficult that it makes this tactic virtually useless except in certain situations. This is why I referred you to the dog bros fights you can see that for yourself.

I would have expected you to jump in with saying that striking the arms in Chi Sao is armchair BS when one should be just striking to the head...like Boxers do! Yet you say the opposite.

Chi sau is practicing wing chun movement or actions or techniques to get better at performing those actions. If you are going to use something in fighting you can practice it in chi sau. You don't punch to the head in chi sau do you?

[LaRoux]

Defanging the snake does not even work in FMA that is another so called concept that has been blown all out of proportion. Just watch some dog bros videos to see that not in action. Of course I know evidence of actual fighting counts for so very very little around here especially when we can think of how it should work.

Defanging the snake works great if you are doing it with a weapon. The reason you don't see it in the dog brothers is because most of the time they are wearing hockey gloves.

[trubblman]

Defanging the snake does not even work in FMA that is another so called concept that has been blown all out of proportion. Just watch some dog bros videos to see that not in action.

The Dog Brothers...haha

[KPM]

Come to think about it I am not sure you know what I mean by arm chair. Arm chair is when your opinion is based on thinking rather than actual experience.

--Actually, I have done sparring with weapons and have had a finger broken...through a hockey glove. It didn't make my happy and I didn't fight very well from that point on. I've taken shots to the elbow that made me drop my weapon. I've evaluated a broken hand...through a glove... at a tournament and sent the fighter to the ER for x-rays and treatment.

You don't punch to the head in chi sau do you?

Yes! You don't?? And I don't hit arms in Chi Sao. That is "chasing hands." Do you have some more "contrarian" comments to make?

[Graham H]

Sooooo, we have the jip sau of course, with its various uses but I think direct limb attack is under used in VT. Attack the attack. Is this a stale topic?

Jip sau is a misinterpretation of pak/jut sau with a punch. It's used as an idea in many systems because one person looked at it without an explanation and thought oh what could that be?

[LFJ]

Jip sau is a misinterpretation of pak/jut sau with a punch. It's used as an idea in many systems because one person looked at it without an explanation and thought oh what could that be?

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...&postcount=360

[tc101]

Defanging the snake works great if you are doing it with a weapon. The reason you don't see it in the dog brothers is because most of the time they are wearing hockey gloves.

The gloves are to avoid the accidental strike to the hand. Here's the thing you can think from the arm chair this sounds like a great idea and should work and stop there blissful thinking you have the answers or you can go really try it and watch others really try it and draw your conclusions fron actual experience.

[guy b.]

In this case you think that hitting the hand is 1 a good possibility and 2 a fight ender. That is what the guys who think they can bite or eye poky their way out of the ground. You both think this is how things work but and this is the important but but you think that from the safety of your arm chair. In neither instance is the opinion based on 1 what you yourself see from actually doing it or 2 see yourself from others actually doing it too. Arm chair is it works on paper. Experience is I am doing it and it works or me and others.

Lets call your view "pads and gum-shields". The pads and gum-shields view is based on the premise that padded sparring is similar to a real fight. While it is a useful training method this view leads to the discounting of methods that do not work with protection and rules. For example, hitting the hand or arm with a bladed weapon is a good tactic because hands and arms are easier to hit (less well defended and closer) than bodies and a blade hitting an arm or hand causes loss of the weapon held by that arm. The pads and gum-shields approach cannot see this because it lacks imagination and never sets foot outside its own safety first approach. Hence, in a real fight, the pads and gum-shields fighter is at a distinct disadvantage. He is fighting a sports match while his opponent is fighting a fight.

[tc101]

Come to think about it I am not sure you know what I mean by arm chair. Arm chair is when your opinion is based on thinking rather than actual experience.

--Actually, I have done sparring with weapons and have had a finger broken...through a hockey glove. It didn't make my happy and I didn't fight very well from that point on. I've taken shots to the elbow that made me drop my weapon. I've evaluated a broken hand...through a glove... at a tournament and sent the fighter to the ER for x-rays and treatment.

I know of boxers and mma fighters that have broken hands, fingers, toes, arms and continued fighting and won so none of those were fight enders.

If you did full contact weapon sparring then you should know that the tactic of defang the snake is vastly overblown since it just doesn't work often or were people getting repeatedly disarmed when you fought? Hitting the weapon or weapon arm as a tactic does not involve trying to disarm that is incidental but is something else.

You don't punch to the head in chi sau do you?

Yes! You don't?? And I don't hit arms in Chi Sao. That is "chasing hands." Do you have some more "contrarian" comments to make?

No you don't. If you really punched to the head your partners would have broken noses, broken teeth, cuts, black eyes and so forth. You may touch him with your closed hand but that is not a punch. A touch is not a punch.

[tc101]

Lets call your view "pads and gum-shields". The pads and gum-shields view is based on the premise that padded sparring is similar to a real fight. While it is a useful training method this view leads to the discounting of methods that do not work with protection and rules. For example, hitting the hand or arm with a bladed weapon is a good tactic because hands and arms are easier to hit (less well defended and closer) than bodies and a blade hitting an arm or hand causes loss of the weapon held by that arm. The pads and gum-shields approach cannot see this because it lacks imagination and never sets foot outside its own safety first approach. Hence, in a real fight, the pads and gum-shields fighter is at a distinct disadvantage. He is fighting a sports match while his opponent is fighting a fight.

Another arm chair opinion. The hand or arm is typically not easier to hit. Usually it is just the opposite.

Even if you hit the hand or arm with a blade most of the time it will not cause a loss of weapon. I know guys who took shrapnel to the arm and did not drop their weapon.

Sparring with protection shows you what is open or not. Having a cup on will protect you from the shot but it doesn't take the shot away.

Here is a perfect example of someone who is not talking from the point of view as let me report what happens when I am doing it or experience and is not doing it but thinks they have the answers.

[Wayfaring]

A lot of vapor in this thread.

Any weapon destruction / de-fang snake / etc. training I've run into is either being aware of an angle for an incidental secondary attack, or training a bounce strike for a weapon hand attack. It certainly is not a primary target of watching the opponent's hand and attacking it.

I saw the self-defense critical videos. IMO the sewing machine attacks overwhelmed the opponent just due to persistence and forward motion. The opponent stops resisting partially through the demos to allow the sewing machine motion to show forth as superior. Probably based on the theory presented.

I do agree with the overall premise that w/o nullifying the blade arm with 2 hands the overall outcome is likely to be two people cut up. And that the way blade fights are trained many times leaves the holes the video says it does.

I mean one guy hopped up on meth coming at you with a sewing machine action with intent is going to be hard to stop with anything short of a .45 slug, a shield, a longer range weapon, or disarming them quickly. The main problem there is the attack is in a particular gate where forward and backward energy govern the motion. To disarm you have to take the weapon out of that gate first.

[guy b.]

Another arm chair opinion. The hand or arm is typically not easier to hit. Usually it is just the opposite.

You wouldn't know this because you have swallowed the pads & gum shields dogma. You even cite the dog brothers in relation to fighting with blades. Says it all, lol

Why don't you explain why many ancient bladed fighting methods used in war and civilian combat attack the hand when it is available and why hand protection is such a large issue in blade and armour design?

Even if you hit the hand or arm with a blade most of the time it will not cause a loss of weapon. I know guys who took shrapnel to the arm and did not drop their weapon.

Lol!

Sparring with protection shows you what is open or not. Having a cup on will protect you from the shot but it doesn't take the shot away.

Sparring with protection alters your whole perspective as previously discussed. Try holding a live blade vs live blade. You will fight very differently indeed.

[KPM]

If you did full contact weapon sparring then you should know that the tactic of defang the snake is vastly overblown since it just doesn't work often or were people getting repeatedly disarmed when you fought? Hitting the weapon or weapon arm as a tactic does not involve trying to disarm that is incidental but is something else.

Well OK Mr. Gumshield Expert. How about you go tell that to the students of men like John Lacoste, Angel Cabales and Floro Villabrille that fought actual no-rules, no-pads matches in the Phillipines but still found the "defang the snake" concept valuable enough to continue to teach to their students.


No you don't. If you really punched to the head your partners would have broken noses, broken teeth, cuts, black eyes and so forth. You may touch him with your closed hand but that is not a punch. A touch is not a punch.

There's that "contrarian" statement I was waiting for! Ever heard of "controlled punching" or "pulling punches"? Boxers do it all the time. Someone with good control in Chi Sao can put their fist right in someone's face without doing damage. Haven't you watched any of the PB youtube clips that have been bandied about recently? He shows lots of punching to the head in Chi Sao without ever actually damaging his partner. Again, you keep saying things that make me wonder just how much Wing Chun you've actually done. You seem to have ONE perspective....Gumshield expert...and apply that perspective to everything you come across. You're like a broken record.

[guy b.]

If you did full contact weapon sparring then you should know that the tactic of defang the snake is vastly overblown since it just doesn't work often or were people getting repeatedly disarmed when you fought? Hitting the weapon or weapon arm as a tactic does not involve trying to disarm that is incidental but is something else.

Well OK Mr. Gumshield Expert. How about you go tell that to the students of men like John Lacoste, Angel Cabales and Floro Villabrille that fought actual no-rules, no-pads matches in the Phillipines but still found the "defang the snake" concept valuable enough to continue to teach to their students.


No you don't. If you really punched to the head your partners would have broken noses, broken teeth, cuts, black eyes and so forth. You may touch him with your closed hand but that is not a punch. A touch is not a punch.

There's that "contrarian" statement I was waiting for! Ever heard of "controlled punching" or "pulling punches"? Boxers do it all the time. Someone with good control in Chi Sao can put their fist right in someone's face without doing damage. Haven't you watched any of the PB youtube clips that have been bandied about recently? He shows lots of punching to the head in Chi Sao without ever actually damaging his partner. Again, you keep saying things that make me wonder just how much Wing Chun you've actually done. You seem to have ONE perspective....Gumshield expert...and apply that perspective to everything you come across. You're like a broken record.

It is literally insane that tc101 would ignore the long evolved blade combat principles of a weapon oriented society like the Philippines in favour of something that the dog brothers came up with in the last 20 years based on sparring with sticks and hockey gloves. Insane.

Not to mention arts like kenjitsu that evolved preserve methods from the recent blade culture in Japan, and documents on western fencing from the time when it was real combat. Indeed kendo (derived from Kenjitsu) and western epee (the most realistic of the modern fencing disciplines) both feature regular hand/arm attacks and wins from such attacks feature heavily in both.