Weapon Attack/ Destruction in Chi Sau

[guy b.]

No you don't. If you really punched to the head your partners would have broken noses, broken teeth, cuts, black eyes and so forth. You may touch him with your closed hand but that is not a punch. A touch is not a punch.

Why would you hit your partner in chi sau, lol?

In sparring it is definitely necessary to go without gloves sometimes otherwise you have no idea how different bare handed and gloved sparring are and are completely unprepared for the latter if it ever happens. Gloves do not prevent broken noses, black eyes or other concussive injury. Cuts and chipped teeth are more likely without gloves, correct. Gum shields protect the teeth but not much you can do about the cuts. You just have to man up and deal with it.

[tc101]

Why would you hit your partner in chi sau, lol?

I am confused I did not say to punch anyone in the head in chi sau I was saying it is not something anyone does.

I strike the body in chi sau.

Do you strike but not hit what you strike at?

In sparring it is definitely necessary to go without gloves sometimes otherwise you have no idea how different bare handed and gloved sparring are and are completely unprepared for the latter if it ever happens. Gloves do not prevent broken noses, black eyes or other concussive injury. Cuts and chipped teeth are more likely without gloves, correct. Gum shields protect the teeth but not much you can do about the cuts. You just have to man up and deal with it.

I do not think you do any sparring.

[tc101]

It is literally insane that tc101 would ignore the long evolved blade combat principles of a weapon oriented society like the Philippines in favour of something that the dog brothers came up with in the last 20 years based on sparring with sticks and hockey gloves. Insane.

No here is what is insane. The whole defang the snake thing is not some long established principle in FMA just the opposite. It was a principle DI expressed and was picked up as though it was a wll established principle. It is a tactic in weapon fighting but it is overblown by those people who do not really spar with weapons and so think the hand is more exposed and that a shot to the hand ends the fight or makes the guy drop his weapon. You would see this for yourself if you did some sparring.

Not to mention arts like kenjitsu that evolved preserve methods from the recent blade culture in Japan, and documents on western fencing from the time when it was real combat. Indeed kendo (derived from Kenjitsu) and western epee (the most realistic of the modern fencing disciplines) both feature regular hand/arm attacks and wins from such attacks feature heavily in both.

As I said it is a vaild but limited tactic. Look at modern epee matches and see how many hand strikes and arm strikes they score. That sort of striking is used mainly as a set up.

[tc101]

If you did full contact weapon sparring then you should know that the tactic of defang the snake is vastly overblown since it just doesn't work often or were people getting repeatedly disarmed when you fought? Hitting the weapon or weapon arm as a tactic does not involve trying to disarm that is incidental but is something else.

Well OK Mr. Gumshield Expert. How about you go tell that to the students of men like John Lacoste, Angel Cabales and Floro Villabrille that fought actual no-rules, no-pads matches in the Phillipines but still found the "defang the snake" concept valuable enough to continue to teach to their students.

Here we go with the old these guys said so even though you do not know that but have only been told it, but if they said it then it must by god be true never mind that we can look at the evidence ourselves and reach our own conclusions.
These same guys thought that guntings worked too lol.

The concept is called a tactic, and like any tactic is useful in certain situations but not others. This one is extremely limited.

No you don't. If you really punched to the head your partners would have broken noses, broken teeth, cuts, black eyes and so forth. You may touch him with your closed hand but that is not a punch. A touch is not a punch.

There's that "contrarian" statement I was waiting for! Ever heard of "controlled punching" or "pulling punches"? Boxers do it all the time. Someone with good control in Chi Sao can put their fist right in someone's face without doing damage. Haven't you watched any of the PB youtube clips that have been bandied about recently? He shows lots of punching to the head in Chi Sao without ever actually damaging his partner. Again, you keep saying things that make me wonder just how much Wing Chun you've actually done. You seem to have ONE perspective....Gumshield expert...and apply that perspective to everything you come across. You're like a broken record.

Yes I have heard of those things but I do not do them since they are very very very poor training. Boxers do not do it all the time. I never see them do it. Do you just make stuff up to support your view? Boxers if they are going light just do it at 30% instad of 90% power but they do not pull or just touch they are always trying to use good mechanics and make solid contact that's why they were gloves and protective gear.

I was taught in wing chun that everytime I strike it is to destroy the opponent's structure, equilibrium, connection, and you do not do that by pulling punches or just touching the guy. That's what I train to do with my puynch so it is what I practice so that I can do it. What do you practice to do with your punch stick it into his face and not touch him?

[LaRoux]

No here is what is insane. The whole defang the snake thing is not some long established principle in FMA just the opposite. It was a principle DI expressed and was picked up as though it was a wll established principle. It is a tactic in weapon fighting but it is overblown by those people who do not really spar with weapons and so think the hand is more exposed and that a shot to the hand ends the fight or makes the guy drop his weapon. You would see this for yourself if you did some sparring.



As I said it is a vaild but limited tactic. Look at modern epee matches and see how many hand strikes and arm strikes they score. That sort of striking is used mainly as a set up.

If you really sparred full contact with weapons and no hand protection, you would understand that hitting the weapon hand is a valid, good percentage technique.

I doubt you are actually sparring full contact with weapons and no protection.

[LaRoux]

I was taught in wing chun that everytime I strike it is to destroy the opponent's structure, equilibrium, connection, and you do not do that by pulling punches or just touching the guy. That's what I train to do with my puynch so it is what I practice so that I can do it.

What you will get good at by doing this is slapping someone in the chest while doing chi sao. What you will not get good at by doing is actually striking someone full force in a fighting situation.

[KPM]

Yes I have heard of those things but I do not do them since they are very very very poor training.

---Really? Practicing to line up and execute punches to the head just sort of landing in Chi Sao is very very very poor training, but practicing to thump someone in the chest is not???? What happened to your "realism in training" mantra?

Boxers do not do it all the time. I never see them do it.

---Then you haven't been looking close enough. Just this week I had a conversation with a Savate instructor that had a visiting coach from France recently. The visiting coach was appalled that they allowed their youth students to strike to the head here. He said amateur boxing and Savate in Europe does not allow this until the student is 19 years old. Until then they punch to the body and throw only light shots to the headgear. I'd call that "pulling punches." Boxers do not go hard during every training session, neither do MMA guys. They pull punches all the time in training, depending upon what they are working on.

Do you just make stuff up to support your view?

---No, do you Mr. Contrarian?

Boxers if they are going light just do it at 30% instad of 90% power but they do not pull or just touch they are always trying to use good mechanics and make solid contact that's why they were gloves and protective gear.

---But one does not wear gloves or protective gear in Chi Sao. So even 30% power can do damage. Therefore rather than "pulling" back to 30% power we pull back to just short of contact. You can still practice good mechanics, timing, control, and angling. You don't understand that about Chi Sao?

I was taught in wing chun that everytime I strike it is to destroy the opponent's structure, equilibrium, connection, and you do not do that by pulling punches or just touching the guy.

---So I guess you never do Chi Sao or other cooperative partner drills? All you do is bang in sparring? Just who is your Wing Chun instructor????

What do you practice to do with your punch stick it into his face and not touch him?

---Chi Sao is just one part of the total package. But you don't seem to understand the total Wing Chun package. The more you post the more you show just how much you don't understand about Wing Chun. Really, you should quite now rather than making it worse!

[guy b.]

I do not think you do any sparring.

You are welcome to think whatever you like. I for one do not think you are a real person for example.

No matter. I do plenty of sparring and often spar without gloves because it is beneficial to the development of real fighting ability. You don't do it and so you live in a sports combat bubble, if you exist beyond your computer persona. To each their own.

[guy b.]

No here is what is insane. The whole defang the snake thing is not some long established principle in FMA just the opposite. It was a principle DI expressed and was picked up as though it was a wll established principle. It is a tactic in weapon fighting but it is overblown by those people who do not really spar with weapons and so think the hand is more exposed and that a shot to the hand ends the fight or makes the guy drop his weapon. You would see this for yourself if you did some sparring.

The hand is much easier to hit than the head or body in kendo and fencing.

As I said it is a vaild but limited tactic. Look at modern epee matches and see how many hand strikes and arm strikes they score. That sort of striking is used mainly as a set up.

Targeting the arm and hand is the main attack in epee. Targeting the hand is how everything else begins, because the hand is the most available target. An unskilled fencer will be hit in the hand or arm immediately and will drop his weapon as a result if live blades.

Old kendo rules gave highest points for a men (head) strike because it was more difficult than a kote (wrist) strike. Wrist is a common and available attack in modern kendo.

Do you just make things up?