would your wing chun work if..

[Brule]

WC has no answer to this because WC has no clinch work.

Yes, it does. It's within the forms, you just haven't got to that stage in your training or you Sifu doesn't know what they's doing.

[LaRoux]

Yes, it does. It's within the forms, you just haven't got to that stage in your training or you Sifu doesn't know what they's doing.

Really? Which form is this that has two man clinch work?

[GlennR]

..it was common knowledge in the way that styles of boxing are?

I know a lot of wing chun really doesn't work at all, but a minority do make it effective. How much of this is the element of surprise though? Do you think your wing chun would be easy to work out and counter if it was well known?

No, it wouldnt work as well IMO

[EternalSpring]

..it was common knowledge in the way that styles of boxing are?

I know a lot of wing chun really doesn't work at all, but a minority do make it effective. How much of this is the element of surprise though? Do you think your wing chun would be easy to work out and counter if it was well known?

I would think so, that's basically what happens from sparring anyways (imo) if you have partners that you train w/ regularly. Assuming they're competent, they'll always figure out something to exploit over time, and when they do, you'll become aware of it and work to fix it, and then the cycle repeats itself.

that said, i dont even think boxing is "common knowledge." It seems like it because there's so much talking one could do on the topic without ever actually doing it, but then again, thats why we have those embarrassing youtube vids of people saying they can deal with hooks and having their students throw nearly locked arm haymakers

[YouKnowWho]

in some lines there is a great emphasis on clinch work. WC can be effective if it is deconstructed, sticking hand principles and bridge work relate very well to grappling.

I have always believed that

- WC sticky hand,
- Taiji push hand, and
- SC grip fight,

should all be integrated together. If you have added this training into your body, you should experience it fully instead of just partially.

It's not hard to add "arm wrap" into your sticky hand as showing at 1.22-1.24 and 2.10-2.13 in the following clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zIJCpUqeb4

[anerlich]

I've been in WC for nearly 25 years. And can say that yes, in some lines there is a great emphasis on clinch work. WC can be effective if it is deconstructed, sticking hand principles and bridge work relate very well to grappling.

I've been in WC for about the same time as you, and in BJJ for about 14 years. I strongly disagree.

There is no set application for any movement in WC just the principles and how these principles can be applied.

Theoretically, perhaps. But I've yet to see or meet a WC instructor who could match a decent grappler in grappling worth a ****, other than Andreas Hoffman (who is a BJJ black belt under Flavio Behring, IIRC), or local practitioners of my acquaintance who cross train in grappling arts.

I use grappling concepts and techniques when I grapple, not WC. They work MUCH better. I used to try and look at grappling through Wing Chun coloured glasses until I had been a blue belt for about a year, then I stopped because trying to use WC concepts was a hindrance rather than a help.

[YouKnowWho]

I used to try and look at grappling through Wing Chun coloured glasses ...

Many longfist guys also tried to look at SC through longfist colored glasses. Their SC tournament record were not very good either. I have seen a group of 15 longfist guys competed in a SC tournament. Every single one lose in their 1st match. After that day, that ground no longer bothered trying to dig out wrestling skill from their longfist system.

There is big difference between one tries to dig out wrestling skill from his solo form than just wrestles on the mat with proper instruction.

[guy b.]

I've been in WC for about the same time as you, and in BJJ for about 14 years. I strongly disagree.

I think most know that wing chun is a hitting art, not a clinching/grappling art. The chances of wing chun principles being useful in grappling is pretty low.

Theoretically, perhaps. But I've yet to see or meet a WC instructor who could match a decent grappler in grappling worth a ****, other than Andreas Hoffman (who is a BJJ black belt under Flavio Behring, IIRC), or local practitioners of my acquaintance who cross train in grappling arts.

Why would they be any good at grappling, unless they trained in it?

[guy b.]

I respect your opinion, but don't necessarily believe it to be 100% true.


There is no set application for any movement in WC just the principles and how these principles can be applied.

Which principle do you apply to grappling?

This is because it is looked at from a striking art by the general populace. WC blew up so quickly I believe that the majority of it out there is very watered down, which is true with many arts not just WC.

You don't think WC is a striking art?

Yes I will agree methods developed for one purpose work better than one used for another, this goes without saying. But there are some useful strategies and skill sets IMO found in WC that lend themselves nicely to grappling. I have years of experience in grappling as well and personally think that many of the movements in WC are verbatim to grappling techniques, albeit the principles are clearly different. Instead of looking at grappling through WC look at the positions found in WC

Didn't you just say there were no positions and that it was "just the principles and how these principles can be applied"?

Lay on your back and assume a WC postures, then compare to positions found in grappling and instead of WC classical application think grappling. There are only so many ways a person can move their body. One of the basic fundamental strategies of WC is Position, Bridge, Control, Apply, Return this is a useful strategy for many methods of martial arts. Sticking hands strategy and the swimming techniques, arm wrapping and grip fighting of grappling go hand in hand, in it's most simplistic form they are trying to accomplish the same thing it just can not be approached from a Rolling Hands platform. I can see where you are coming from and you do pose a valid point, but I do believe there may be room for further investigation. All the best in your training.

Think grappling? Lol. How?

[anerlich]

Instead of looking at grappling through WC look at the positions found in WC, Lay on your back and assume a WC postures, then compare to positions found in grappling and instead of WC classical application think grappling. There are only so many ways a person can move their body. One of the basic fundamental strategies of WC is Position, Bridge, Control, Apply, Return this is a useful strategy for many methods of martial arts.

As I said, I tried that for a while and found it just got in the way where Jiu Jitsu was concerned.

I have years of experience in grappling as wel

So you cross-trained? Kind of refutes your argument if you did.

If not, how have your WC-based methods fared in grappling tournaments?

[lance]

..it was common knowledge in the way that styles of boxing are?

I know a lot of wing chun really doesn't work at all, but a minority do make it effective. How much of this is the element of surprise though? Do you think your wing chun would be easy to work out and counter if it was well known?

guy b. What styles of boxing are you talking about ? Western boxing or muay thai ? No matter what you say about wing chun , it is what it is , western boxing , you may have all your punching arsenal of your choice , but you can ' t backfist , or use elbows , knees and kicking techniques , so it ' s limited right there . Muay Thai can be competitive against WCK , depending on both people though ?

Example Look at Sifu Gary Lam although he got punched at one of his seminars . He was a Muay Thai fighter , before going into WCK . But look he ended up teaching WCK anyway . WCK in a fight , depends on how good both fighters are ?
Well , you know what they say only the best man win . If you say WCK does ' nt really work for you ? Why does ' nt it work for you ? Maybe you ' re not doing it right ? You ' ve got to experiment with the WCK techniques and figure out why it does ' nt work for you . In WCK , the techniques are suppose to prevent you from getting hit , depending on the situations you ' re in , other than that modify it to make it work for you , the last resort stick to the WCK techniques which really works for you . If you know about martial arts , then you know what I ' m talking about ?

[GlennR]

guy b. What styles of boxing are you talking about ? Western boxing or muay thai ? No matter what you say about wing chun , it is what it is , western boxing , you may have all your punching arsenal of your choice , but you can ' t backfist , or use elbows , knees and kicking techniques , so it ' s limited right there . Muay Thai can be competitive against WCK , depending on both people though ?

Example Look at Sifu Gary Lam although he got punched at one of his seminars . He was a Muay Thai fighter , before going into WCK . But look he ended up teaching WCK anyway . WCK in a fight , depends on how good both fighters are ?
Well , you know what they say only the best man win . If you say WCK does ' nt really work for you ? Why does ' nt it work for you ? Maybe you ' re not doing it right ? You ' ve got to experiment with the WCK techniques and figure out why it does ' nt work for you . In WCK , the techniques are suppose to prevent you from getting hit , depending on the situations you ' re in , other than that modify it to make it work for you , the last resort stick to the WCK techniques which really works for you . If you know about martial arts , then you know what I ' m talking about ?

I think Lance has a thing for you Guy

[LFJ]

There's definitely something wrong with his keyboard.

[GlennR]

There's definitely something wrong with his keyboard.

Bwahahahahaahha

[guy b.]

I think Lance has a thing for you Guy

I sure hope it's not just me. I need to stop provoking him