Bak Hok/Hap Gar/Long/Short

[TenTigers]

ok, so Fukien Bak Hok is predominantly a short-hand system.
Hop-Ga/Lama is predominantly a long-arm system-BUT it also has short hand techniques. In fact, many are similar to Fukien Bak Hok/Wing/Weng Chun. You see what essentially is bong, tan, fook,pak, biu etc, so there must have been some cross pollenization..?
And yet, Fukien Bak Hok does not seem to have the long-arm techniques...like they decided, "nah, we'll just keep these right here.."
I am interested in your views on this subject.

[jdhowland]

Well...a lot of the Bak Hok people have been Hakka.

[Gru Bianca]

Hello Ten Tigers

In my line of TWC we have the 4 crane methods (Sleeping, Calling, Flying, Feeding). But then again, why shouldn't we. After all the Lama Jin Bo Liu Tou was supposed to have been Wu Mei. I know most people like to think that FWC and TWC are seperate "animals" but with a shared lineage how could there not be simularities. Both methods employ a version of "Needle in Cotton" as advanced training.

this is not the first time I read about the Fujian Bak Hok having a "Needle in the Cotton" kind of form but I have never seen it performed nor mentioned by people of the style. Would that be a characteristic of all the Fukian Bak Hok styles or just one?
Any more info I could tap to on that?

Thanks

[Gru Bianca]

Hello Gru,

I have seen the "Needle in Cotton" form of FWC once. It was called "Fair Lady Threads a Needle" or something like that. Not sure exactly what branch of FWC it was. It was performed in a line and was done softer than their normal stuff. Similar to Flying Crane style. Can't remember who it was, must have been 25+ years ago. Interesting none the less. I do remember reading an artle once that was posted by Martin Watts, where an elder of the Yongchun clan was discussing the "Cotton Needle" method. If I remember correctly the gentleman said that it was a rare system of "Long Limbed" crane from the north, but not Pak Hok Pai. Possibly Flying Crane.

Thank you for the imput.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Some systems start of LONG to end up short and other times they start off short.
It is debatable if it is best to start off short or to start off long and then shorten up.
There are pros and cons to both methods.

The long arm systems develop along the full range of (exaggerated) movement so when they shorten up, the core base strength is there.
This methods takes longer to develop.

The short arm systems are hard to get at first and take more getting used to and, in some cases, some people never "get it", but those that do get there quicker.

The okinawan karate systems start long and end short, most "boxing" systems are like that too ( Boxing, MT, etc), even "real" TKD.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Is this the form you guys mean?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOTkv0o47RA

[TenTigers]

odd thing-in the beiginning stages of Jook Lum SPM, (at least in the Lam Wing-Fay version I am practicing) the short power is at the beginning of the chain-short arm, short power. Later on in the system, the power is generated at the end of the chain. Long (er) arm, short power.

[Gru Bianca]

Is this the form you guys mean?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOTkv0o47RA

Yes that's it ........as in general terms

[Gru Bianca]

I met a Fukien Shaolin practitioner years ago who provided me with a list of their forms. It started with Three battles and ended with Cotton Needle. I asked him about this and he said that Cotton Needle was considered the most advanced training of his system.

Thank you for your kind Imput; could you be more specific on what is intended with Fukien Shaolin practicioner? What style exactly?

Thank you

[Gru Bianca]

It's interesting to note that the "Needle in Cotton" or more specifically the "Silk Gauze Wrapping" is an original concept in TWC, an original concept of crane in general. "Three Battles" is the foundation of FWC. However, "Three Battles" is a concept found hidden in TWC via the Xiao Wu Xing Quan (Small 5 Patterns Fist) that was re-developed by Wang Yan Lin. Xiao Wu Xing was based on another concept called Tie Xian (Iron Wire). This was taught by Sheng Long Lao Zong, aka: Jin Gou & Li Husi. Sheng Long taught this method to Tie Qiao San. There are 2 methods of "Cotton Needle", Hard and Soft. These are concepts based on the original Trul Khor exercises of Tibetan Yoga and the 6 exercises of Naropa. If one looks closely the concepts are evident in both systems of crane. Now stands the debate, which came first FWC or TWC? Who is the mother and who is the son?

I was told that the simultaneous practice of Ng Siu Him kune and Min Lo I Cham are optimum complements to each others

[TenTigers]

Hello,



Can I ask why you think this is done this way and reasoning behind it?

it's a much more subtler body movement/skill. Having the hand come in soft and then nearly at the end of extension requires greater skill development than coiling, contracting and releasing. In the longer strike, the power is not compacted-as obviously.

[Gru Bianca]

This information is from my journal dated March 23, 1996:

Five Elders
Three different sets of Five Elders. First burning of the Shaolin Temple circa 1674 gave rise to Choy, Li, Fut, Mot, Hung. Direct lineage to Gin Sin and Ng Mu. After the burning of the temple, two later sets of Five Elders- Five Early Elders and Five later Elders.

Tiger- Monkey- Trembling (laughing) Crane System

Related to Mon Gwo Moon, Pan Gai Noon, Southern Mantis, White Eyebrow, Wing Chun, etc.

Forms:

Eight Basic Forms. First four are the signature of the system.

1. Twenty punches- Only fists in the curriculum.
2. San Chien Chang- Three Wars Palms
3. Slicing Palms- Slap/ block/ thrust. Diagonal strikes while pursuing straight line.
4. Thrust Palm/ Slap- Circular block and strike similar to Wing Chun tan sau with double palms.

Two person sets

5. Lohan- punch and kick.
6, 7, 8. Crane Sets- Large moves with basic principles of the previous sets.
9, 10. Monkey sets.
11, 12. Tiger sets.
13, 14. San Chin Crane sets. Highest level Crane in the system used to check a person's skill level.
Taught first as it takes so long to learn.
15, 16, 17. Not discussed.
18. Cotton Needle

Thank you for your further elaboration

[TenTigers]

IMO, it cuts down on fatigue while at the same time allowing one to keep their impact power.

good point-it is because of this, that my Sifu can spar with all of us until we're gassed, and he hasn't even broken a sweat.
It also allows the hand/bridge to be soft, alive and sensitive and still be able to strike hard.

[jdhowland]

odd thing-in the beiginning stages of Jook Lum SPM, (at least in the Lam Wing-Fay version I am practicing) the short power is at the beginning of the chain-short arm, short power. Later on in the system, the power is generated at the end of the chain. Long (er) arm, short power.

I have seen this approach in a few Hakka styles, namely SPM and Lung Ying. Not so sure about Bak Mei because I haven't seen much of it. What is interesting is that Cheuk Tse also mentioned swallowing and spitting in TWC and there are elements of closed-chest multiple short strikes in his version of TWC, even in basic iron chain boxing. Plenty more examples of it in the grappling moves of Hop Ga Kyun. It seems that none of the early Lama style practitioners held to a single system or transmission of the art.

My current theory is that the origin of southern short hand styles lies in the rejection of basic training (large frame) in favor of close range small frame work for advanced practitioners and the shortcut got passed on as systematic training for everyone.

Either method can work. My personal preference is for going from big to small. I'm a six-footer with a long reach and it works well for me but if you are willing to go front door to take someone out quickly, I can see the advantage of keeping the elbows and shoulders in as long as you can develop enough power in the strikes.

[TenTigers]

My current theory is that the origin of southern short hand styles lies in the rejection of basic training (large frame) in favor of close range small frame work for advanced practitioners and the shortcut got passed on as systematic training for everyone.

Either method can work. My personal preference is for going from big to small. I'm a six-footer with a long reach and it works well for me but if you are willing to go front door to take someone out quickly, I can see the advantage of keeping the elbows and shoulders in as long as you can develop enough power in the strikes.

makes sense. In my Hung-Ga, we start with Gung-Ji Fook Fu Kuen-predominantly long arm techniques. In Fu Hok Seurng Ying Kuen, the emphasis changes to the short bridge, more sublties of energy, hard and soft.
Many Hung-Ga practitioners never really develop the short bridge-which is fine-the long arm works very well and is extremely powerful.
I can also see how people said,"Why go through that, I want to just do the inside short bridging." and went in that direction.
Here's what I have noticed, though;
Many SPM teacher do teach a long bridge form and training BEFORE bringing their students into the short bridge technique. They want to establish a foundation, develop the long power chain, before concentrating on the last few links of that chain. It's developmental training.
"From the large comes the small, from the hard, comes the soft."

I have noticed that people who only learn the short, have a harder time developing power, as compared to people who have learned larger movements and then go short.
I would be interested in hearing from others who have either had this experience, or the opposite.

One more thing: somestyles such as Bak Mei P'ai, and Jook Lum SPM, consider their styles to be "finishing" or "Polishing" styles, meaning that once a practitioner has established a firm foundation in a given style, he THEN learns these systems to refine his technique.
(ah..maybe we're just snobs..)