Sport competition and self defense environments...

[YouKnowWho]

If we don't talk about multiple opponents, gun, knife, stick, brick, ... and just talk about 1 on 1 open hand fight, the street fight situation may add more "surprise" factor into it. But most of the time, your street opponent won't be as good fighter as the guy you may meet in the ring.

In order to be able to deal with "surprise", you have to train your body to respond to certain situation sub-consciously without thinking. What's the most common attack on the street? It won't be a

- roundhouse kick to your head,
- side kick to your chest,
- shoot at your single leg or double legs,
- perfect hip throw,
- ...

It will be someone tries to knock your head off with a jab, cross type of punches. What will be your respond?

You can train yourself to respond without thinking by

- kick your leg out at your opponent's belly,
- sweep at your opponent's leading leg,
- spin your body and throw a 45 degree downward haymaker,
- ...

All those responds can be used to interrupt your opponent's attack nicely. After you have taken care of the "surprise" factor, you can then decide what you want to do next. After that, if you decide to jump in and attack your opponent, your attack will be exactly the same as your attack in the ring.

All those sub-conscious responds, and your jump in attack can be trained in the "combat sport" environment.

[sihing]

If we don't talk about gun, knife, stick, brick, ... and just talk about open hand fight, the street fight situation may add more "surprise" factor into it. But most of the time, your street opponent won't be as good fighter as the guy you may meet in the ring.

In order to be able to deal with "surprise", you have to train your body to respond to certain situation sub-consciously without thinking. What's the most common attack on the street? It won't be a

- roundhouse kick to your head,
- side kick to your chest,
- shoot at your single leg or double legs,
- perfect hip throw,
- ...

It will be someone tries to knock your head off with a jab, cross type of combination. What will be your respond?

You can train yourself to respond without thinking by

- kicking your leg out at your opponent's belly,
- sweep at your opponent's leading leg,
- spin your body and throw a 45 degree downward haymaker,
- ...

Your respond try to interrupt your opponent's attack. After you have taken care of the "surprise" factor, you can then decide what you want to do after that. All those sub-conscious responds can be trained in the "combat sport" environment.

Now u''ve created a false envirnment, "oh just imagine there are no weapons" then its just like the ring, the very fact there could b weapons or multi opponents changes everything, but u have made the what if change to make it like a ring fight, how convenient..

[YouKnowWho]

Now u''ve created a false envirnment, "oh just imagine there are no weapons" then its just like the ring, the very fact there could b weapons or multi opponents changes everything, but u have made the what if change to make it like a ring fight, how convenient..

I don't know there will be much to talk about if you have "Colt 45" in your hand and I have "Walter PPK" in my hand. Your MA style and my MA style won't mean anything.

One of the best TCMA fighters used to say,

- "If you 2 don't have knifes and I don't have knife, I'll win."
- "If you 2 have knifes and I also have knife, I'll win."

He would never say,

- "If you 3 don't have knifes and I don't have knife, I'll win."
- "If you 3 have knifes and I also have knife, I'll win."
- "If you 2 have knifes and I don't have knife, I'll win."

When multiple opponents and knifes are involved, even the best TCMA fighter won't even know what the outcome may be. How can normal guys like you and I be able to make any assumption in such situation?

[LaRoux]

As Rory Miller points out in his book, Meditations on Violence, a criminal assault happens much closer, faster, suddenly and powerfully than most people believe. It is nasty, brutish and short and has nothing to do with the intricate chess game of timing and distance involved in competition fighting.

Really? Tell that to this guy:
http://vimeo.com/5479996

There seemed to be quite a bit of timing an distance involved there.

[LaRoux]

You have to "contextualize" your skill, putting it under pressure in situations that replicate actual assault scenarios as closely as possible. Since you still have to take safety into account, there will be flaws in this type of training as well, and you have to understand them and work with them.

This part is true. And it's clear that the "training for self-defense crowd" that is posting here has no clue how hard you have to train and how long it takes to develop this kind of skill or how dangerous and injury-provoking this type of training is.

The very nature of the unpredictability and the number of factors involved in SD situations dictate that, if anything, developing this kind of ability to a decent degree is harder than developing sport fighting skills.

[Grumblegeezer]

In reading the previous exchange between YouKnowWho and Sihing, I see validity in both points of view. If you limit the situation to a one-on-one empty handed encounter, as YouKnowWho described, then there are a lot more parallels to combat sport training. And, regardless of the situation, the reflexes, conditioning and physical and mental toughness trained in sporting combat would be tremendously helpful assets in a self-defense situation. Conversely, approaching a self defense scenario with a competitive mindset focused on "winning" over an opponent can be counterproductive as well.

One problem in this discussion is that some people confuse self-defense with "street fighting". "Street fighting" implies no holds barred dueling with the objective of "winning" i.e. defeating your opponent or opponents. On the other hand, in a true self-defense situation, your goal may simply be to escape, that is to get yourself, and possibly loved ones or others you are protecting, out of harm's way while exposing yourself to the least danger possible. In other words, self defense is about survival. "Winning" over an opponent isn't a concern.

[LaRoux]

One problem in this discussion is that some people confuse self-defense with "street fighting". "Street fighting" implies no holds barred dueling with the objective of "winning" i.e. defeating your opponent or opponents. On the other hand, in a true self-defense situation, your goal may simply be to escape, that is to get yourself, and possibly loved ones or others you are protecting, out of harm's way while exposing yourself to the least danger possible. In other words, self defense is about survival. "Winning" over an opponent isn't a concern.

Self-defense incorporates either or both of these or sometimes something else. Sometimes self-defense requires escaping. Sometimes it involves "winning". Sometimes it involves simply surviving for a while until backup comes.

[LaRoux]

VT is all about the physical side of it, allowing one to learn effective mechanics and back up structure, sensitivity, control and power generation to make it all happen once a SD situation takes place, its not meant for comps IMO, it can be adapted for it though..

Not if there is no specific, hard training in those self-defense situations.

[Grumblegeezer]

Self-defense incorporates either or both of these or sometimes something else. Sometimes self-defense requires escaping. Sometimes it involves "winning". Sometimes it involves simply surviving for a while until backup comes.

Well said.

[LaRoux]

If you limit the situation to a one-on-one empty handed encounter, as YouKnowWho described, then there are a lot more parallels to combat sport training. And, regardless of the situation, the reflexes, conditioning and physical and mental toughness trained in sporting combat would be tremendously helpful assets in a self-defense situation.

Add in weapons, different environments, and differing number of opponents and there are still more parallels to sport training than there are differences if one is going to do effective training

Conversely, approaching a self defense scenario with a competitive mindset focused on "winning" over an opponent can be counterproductive as well..

Last time I checked, wanting to disable your opponent as quickly as possible is not counterproductive to a SD situation.

[LaRoux]

However, as many experts on the subject point out, an assault is not a test of skill. The last thing that a criminal assailant wants is a "fight". He wants nothing but a victim, and he will choose his victim, as well as the time and place of the assault, to tip the scales as much in his favor as possible, minimizing risk and maximizing results.

Once again, the "self-defense crowd" seems to want to minimize what can happen in a SD situation. SD can involve this type of person. It can also include many types of situations in which the aggressor doesn't care at all about how he chooses a victim or when or where it happens.

[LaRoux]

Agree, good post. It is incredibly naive to imagine that a criminal assault is going to resemble a ring fight in any way.

What is incredibly naive is to assume that a "criminal assault" will never have similarities to a ring fight.

[LaRoux]

Awareness is key in SD situations, and one can achieve effectivenss in SD situations quickly and be able to survive to live another day if that is what they want. Training for comps is about competition and winning, that is different as you are preparing to fight someone that is prepared as well, under ruled conditions.

Both situations depend on the level of the opponent(s). Sure you can develop some effectiveness for SD quickly. You can do the same in sport. However, as in any human endeavor, developing high levels of skill takes a lot of time and work.

Of course there will always be those hucksters who are selling the "get good/rich/ripped quick (insert whatever shortcut goal applies) scams.

SD situations are totally different, your only intent is to survive, not beat and, where is it going to happen, whom is involved, what are the circumstances, are you impaired and are they??? The variables add up, and the intent and intensity are so much different.

The very nature of the unpredictability and the number of potential factors makes developing skills in this area even harder than sport fighting.

[sihing]

Both situations depend on the level of the opponent(s). Sure you can develop some effectiveness for SD quickly. You can do the same in sport. However, as in any human endeavor, developing high levels of skill takes a lot of time and work.

Of course there will always be those hucksters who are selling the "get good/rich/ripped quick (insert whatever shortcut goal applies) scams.





The very nature of the unpredictability and the number of potential factors makes developing skills in this area even harder than sport fighting.

Not harder than sport fighting, just different in many ways. Both have their difficulties to overcome, both share tools and motions that are similar, but that is just the surface, the intent and situations are different, the danger is different, the environment is different ( I teach ppl to be aware of natural weapons or aids, like stair cases, corners of walls, chairs/tables, glass/liquid on floor), your faculties and his are different (meaning there is no awareness that the event will take place long before it happens, the criminal may decide 10 min bfr he attacks you that this is going to happen), the element of surprise is more present in SD situations (if you trained in it, this element is paramount of importance, it can give you a great advantage, the assailant may not be able to read your SD abilities in you, and if he does then maybe he may not make you his next victim..)

The thing is there are no ABSOLUTES here (U seem to believe there is..), anything can happen, it is just a matter of getting prepared for it as best one can and being aware of surroundings and situations as best one can,,What else can one do??

J

[Sean66]

LaRoux,
The video you posted involves a different type of violence, and hence a different dynamic.
It is not a criminal assault, but a form of social violence.

Miller describes this type of violence as including "ritualized jockeying for territory or status. It also includes acts to prove or increase group solidarity (a powerful side-effect of hunting as a team) and violence to enforce the rules and mores of the group."

Asocial violence, on the other hand, "...does not target the victim as a person, but as a resource. Asocial violence is the domain of the predator and the humanity of his victim does not enter into the equation."

The two have a much different dynamic. Social violence, with it's emphasis on establishing dominance (sexual, racial or otherwise) tends to follow very clear patterns, depending on culture, and also tends more closely to resemble what most people think as "fighting". Miller fittingly refers to it as "the monkey dance".

Asocial violence is what I was referring to in my post (my bad for not being clear), and more resembles this (go to 1:16)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RROfS6tznw