Sport competition and self defense environments...

[LaRoux]

LaRoux,
The video you posted involves a different type of violence, and hence a different dynamic.
It is not a criminal assault, but a form of social violence.

Miller describes this type of violence as including "ritualized jockeying for territory or status. It also includes acts to prove or increase group solidarity (a powerful side-effect of hunting as a team) and violence to enforce the rules and mores of the group."

Asocial violence, on the other hand, "...does not target the victim as a person, but as a resource. Asocial violence is the domain of the predator and the humanity of his victim does not enter into the equation."

The two have a much different dynamic. Social violence, with it's emphasis on establishing dominance (sexual, racial or otherwise) tends to follow very clear patterns, depending on culture, and also tends more closely to resemble what most people think as "fighting". Miller fittingly refers to it as "the monkey dance".

Asocial violence is what I was referring to in my post (my bad for not being clear), and more resembles this (go to 1:16)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RROfS6tznw

Yeah, walking down the street and having 3 racist guys jump out of their truck to beat you up doesn't count as self-defense because it is social violence rather than asocial violence.

[LaRoux]

[I]
One comment about the quote above. Since according to the article on the page you referred us to, most physical violence is personal, involving someone you know... most is not avoidable crime but fighting, with mutual escalation and shared blame. And although death from assault may be rare, fighting is not..

Sometimes personal violence with someone you know cannot be avoided or deescalated. Just because something is not a surprise assault against someone with a weapon or two does not make it not self-defense.

[Sean66]

LaRoux,
I did not say that it "doesn't count".
It's a different type of violence and has a different dynamic.

I really suggest reading some material on the subject. The books by Rory miller, "Facing Violence" and "Meditations on Violence" would be a good starting point.

[LaRoux]

LaRoux,
I did not say that it "doesn't count".
It's a different type of violence and has a different dynamic.

I understand the difference. Both types count as self-defense. Imagine that.

[Grumblegeezer]

Interestingly, the same kind of status seeking social behaviors that characterize the "monkey dance" can often be observed in posts on this forum, and on this particular thread.

Check out some of the ego driven remarks, the refusals to back down, admit mis-statements, or in any way yield dominance, ...the deliberately contrary attitudes and sarcastic replies ...good thing we are unable to make physical contact or we'd probably witness more than a few silly fights!

On the other hand, it's a good opportunity to practice avoidance and de-escalation. Unlike a rough bar scene, here when people get out of hand ...you just exit the forum.

[LaRoux]

Check out some of the ego driven remarks, the refusals to back down, admit mis-statements, or in any way yield dominance, ...the deliberately contrary attitudes and sarcastic replies ...good thing we are unable to make physical contact or we'd probably witness more than a few silly fights!

No you wouldn't because all the "self-defense" crowd would be too busy exiting the building rather than asserting themselves and risking a physical confrontation that might get them hurt.

[anerlich]

It maybe would have helped to read the thread first

I read it a second time and it was not helpful then either.

[lance]

On another thread there was a post noting the difference between the more limited physical training required for self-defense application and what was necessary to succeed in sport competition. YouKnowWho responded with the post below:



On one hand, I definitely see his point. There's no reason to think that less will be demanded of you when fighting for your life in a self-defense situation than in sport competition. If you can't knock down an opponent in a ring, what makes you think it'll be easier in a back ally? If you want to be good at self defense, I agree that you need some sparring to realize what you have to be able to dish out, and what you need to be able to take in a fight.

On the other hand, self-defense is never a "fair fight" between equals. You use whatever deception and dirty tricks you can. For example, I remember a seminar given by a old boxing/fma instructor I've known for years. During one demo segment, he told the young, fit BJJ instructor at his gym to attack him full on. "Tai", the BJJ guy, obliged by taking the FMA guy to the mat, mounting him, and proceeding with the old "ground and pound".

The FMA guy (on the bottom) tapped out with his left hand, and asked everybody watching to give their opinion as to who would walk away from this encounter. We all said "Tai", the guy on top, of course. Then the FMA guy he asked Tai to open his gi top. Inside was the FMA guy's right hand with a metal training knife that he had been working across Tai's gut and chest.. Tai's eyes bugged out in surprise. "I never even knew that was there" he blurted. "If this had been for real, I'd be like ...so dead."

This is the difference between self defense and sport. In self defense, it is assumed that the other guy is bigger, stronger, or better than you are, so you have to find other ways to win.

...Maybe that means you don't slam your fist against "your opponent's face exactly the same way in both environments." Maybe in self-defense, you do something like feign submission and hit 'em with a brick ...then run away.

Grumblegeezer , when you talk about sports competition ? Are you talking about MMA ? Sports Competition has rules and regulations right ? Self Defense it ' s either your attacker or you . In a sports competition if either you or your opponent severly hurting eachother , can be banned from the competition .

In a self defense situation , weapons can be involved too , it can be dirty and mean too , so we all have to deal with whatever may result out of it . To me if you can knock the opponent out or hurt the person , then that ' s good . Other than that doing anything to avoid the risk of what the opponent may do to us . It works both ways to me . If you can avoid it or get away then that ' s good , but other than that we'll just have to deal with the situation .

[anerlich]

and sarcastic replies

ban those an my raison d'etre on this forum is gone

[Grumblegeezer]

ban those an my raison d'etre on this forum is gone

OK, I grant you that. As long as they are entertaining, why not? Like that one about reading the thread a second time and it not helping.