The most controversial TCMA system

[YouKnowWho]

I found this picture in another forum.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.n...46859185_n.jpg

The Bagua system may be the most controversial TCMA system that exist on this planet. This is a good example that when you mix "combat" and "health", it may not always make sense. It's not hard to see from the following pictures.

Will you stand in front of your opponent like this in combat? If you don't, why do you want to spend time to train it? Besides wasting your training time, the moment that you have developed "bad habit" like this, it's very difficult to remove it later on.

Your thought?

[jdhowland]

Only if that front foot has just swept his legs.

[SavvySavage]

I found this picture in another forum.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.n...46859185_n.jpg

The Bagua system may be the most controversial TCMA system that exist on this planet. This is a good example that when you mix "combat" and "health", it may not always make sense. It's not hard to see from the following pictures.

Will you stand in front of your opponent like this in combat? If you don't, why do you want to spend time to train it? Besides wasting your training time, the moment that you have developed "bad habit" like this, it's very difficult to remove it later on.

Your thought?

You aren't meant to stand in front of your opponent in this posture as an en guarde move. The movement starts at your center line and then moves horizontally out with you looking at the circle. The end position isn't important. Rather its the motion which is teaching you to exert force horizontally. You're meant to apply this horizontal, vertical, and oblique(combination of horizontal and vertical) energy to your opponent while engaging in technique.

[mawali]

CMA fellows mistake form and function regarding baquazhang and utility. Health is good for those who lack the attributes of a fighter but the best example I have seen is He Jinghan along with a small few and they are rare, indeed!

[pazman]

I once heard Baguazhang was a combination of circle walking from daoist traditions and luohanquan. I've trained in both, separately. I was quite shocked to see bagua people running circles around each other without an ounce of proper fighting skills.

I think I'll pass on baguazhang.

[YouKnowWho]

The movement starts at your center line and then moves horizontally out with you looking at the circle.

In the following clip at 0.30 and 0.40, you can see that you will sweep your opponent's leading leg when he tries to move his leading leg closer to his back leg. This is the simple principle that if your opponent wants to reduce his base area (defined by his feet), you will help him to reduce it even more.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUnkPZSgHCY

My concern is when your back foot, front foot, and your opponent are on a straight line, if you want to move into his side door, will you move your front foot first or will you move your back foot first?

I believe Bagua guys will move their front foot first. This will cause 'legs crossing" which will give your opponent an opportunity to sweep you.

Here is the difference.

- If you move your back foot first, the distance between you and your opponent has not been changed. If your opponent's can't reach you before, he still can't reach you now. So when you move your back foot first, you have not committed yourself on anything. You don't have to take any risk.

- This is not the case when your move your front foot first. The moment that you move your front foot, the distance between you and your opponent has been changes. Your opponent may not be able to reach you before, he may be able to reach you now. So when you move your front foot, you have committed yourself right at that moment. You have to take the risk to be swept.

Do you want to give your opponent a chance to attack you while you can't attack him (when you move your front foot first)? Or do you want to give yourself a chance to attack your opponent, at the same time that you don't create any chance for him to attack you (when you move your back foot first)?

I like to align my back foot, my opponent's front foot, and his back foot in a straight line when I attack. This way, no matter how my opponent may move his leading foot, his leading leg will always be under my attacking range. In order to do so, I always have to move my back foot first (to do the alignment). If I cross train the Bagua system, the basic Bagua footwork will contradict against my bread and butter footwork. I don't see any reason for me to do that.

[SavvySavage]

In the following clip at 0.30 and 0.40, you can see that you will sweep your opponent's leading leg when he tries to move his leading leg closer to his back leg. This is the simple principle that if your opponent wants to reduce his base area (defined by his feet), you will help him to reduce it even more.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUnkPZSgHCY

My concern is when your back foot, front foot, and your opponent are on a straight line, if you want to move into his side door, will you move your front foot first or will you move your back foot first?

I believe Bagua guys will move their front foot first. This will cause 'legs crossing" which will give your opponent an opportunity to sweep you.

Here is the difference.

- If you move your back foot first, the distance between you and your opponent has not been changed. If your opponent's can't reach you before, he still can't reach you now. So when you move your back foot first, you have not committed yourself on anything. You don't have to take any risk.

- This is not the case when your move your front foot first. The moment that you move your front foot, the distance between you and your opponent has been changes. Your opponent may not be able to reach you before, he may be able to reach you now. So when you move your front foot, you have committed yourself right at that moment. You have to take the risk to be swept.

Do you want to give your opponent a chance to attack you while you can't attack him (when you move your front foot first)? Or do you want to give yourself a chance to attack your opponent, at the same time that you don't create any chance for him to attack you (when you move your back foot first)?

I like to align my back foot, my opponent's front foot, and his back foot in a straight line when I attack. This way, no matter how my opponent may move his leading foot, his leading leg will always be under my attacking range. In order to do so, I always have to move my back foot first (to do the alignment). If I cross train the Bagua system, the basic Bagua footwork will contradict against my bread and butter footwork. I don't see any reason for me to do that.

I don't think you were meant to use the form as is. Otherwise there is little room for different techniques. If you look the form as ways off moving it will make more sense. Dong taught his disciples, who were already masters,the single palm change and double palm change and told them to apply these horizontal, vertical, and oblique energies into their current martial arts.

[mickey]

Greetings,

Here is Lyte Burley working the single palm change he took down Maoshan with.

@00:45

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nBkexsZrvE


We also have to keep in mind that the mud wading step was innovated from Xingyi.


mickey

[YouKnowWho]

to apply these horizontal, vertical, and oblique energies into their current martial arts.

This statement is a bit too "abstract". Could you map it into more plain English? An example will be helpful.

[YouKnowWho]

We also have to keep in mind that the mud wading step was innovated from Xingyi.

The Bagua Kou Bu and Bai Bu came from SC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmIhj...ature=youtu.be

[ngokfei]

The Bagua Kou Bu and Bai Bu came from SC



and the proof is???????

[SavvySavage]

The Bagua Kou Bu and Bai Bu came from SC



and the proof is???????

I don't believe this to be true at all. This move came from that style blah blah. They all have the same stuff.

Kou bu(turning the foot in) and bai bu(turning the foot out) are in all styles. It can't have come from sj because ba gua doesn't use it the same way. I'd argue that ba gua doesn't use it at all where as in sj they hook with it and turn out to complete throws. In ba gua they do it a lot in the forms....which is about it. To say that kou bu and bai bu come from sj is insulting to sj. No offense.

In ba gua kou bu and bai bu are done in the forms to teach students to load power into the hip like a spring and then unload it. It is also a health exercise used to "open" up the hip. In other words doing the move loosens the gluteus muscles and helps adjust a hip that is stuck or too tight. I have never seen it used in actual application though.

[SavvySavage]

This statement is a bit too "abstract". Could you map it into more plain English? An example will be helpful.

Hip throw is an example of vertical energy. The vertical energy trained in ba gua is meant to be drawn out and used for any vertical move not just the move you see in the form.

Does ba gua train it this way? Maybe, maybe not.

[YouKnowWho]

The Bagua Kou Bu and Bai Bu came from SC



and the proof is???????

I don't have any proof. A Bagua instructor told me that. I only know the 8 palms but I no longer train it. I take Bagua teacher's words for it.

[18elders]

it's easy to make an assumption on an art you have no clue about.
seems you like to troll all the boards and say how everyone else sucks.