The most controversial TCMA system

[David Jamieson]

I just googled Kung fu hottie and every image with a hottie holding a sword is from this forum

Ta Dah!

..........

[GeneChing]

I just googled Kung fu hottie and every image with a hottie holding a sword is from this forum

Actually, almost all of those pix are poached off other sites, but we're glad to receive the traffic.

[David Jamieson]

I'm gonna go ahead and say it because it's true.

The most controversial TCMA system for all time will always be Shaolin.
Why? Because it's legit and there is a lot of not legit Shaolin out there.
It has more ponderings, writings, heroes, advocates, nay sayers, haters, lovers etc and is more widely known by the general populace without even practicing or knowing what it is.

My moms friends know what shaolin is without knowing what it is. lol

Say bagua to an uninitiated one and you'll get a "what?, Bag what?"
Say Hung Gar, Wing Chun, Tong Long etc and you will get the same wtf look.

But say Shaolin and pretty much anyone knows about it and has a view no matter how small, how wrong, how right or how large. lol

[GeneChing]

I honestly love the controversy surrounding Shaolin. It's fascinating on so many levels. The controversy keeps me engaged.

But back on topic...

The Bagua system may be the most controversial TCMA system that exist on this planet.

This post began with YKW's questioning of the twisted Bagua stance shown here:

A common misconception about form practice arises the inability to visualize the position and attitude of the opponent. Grabbing some pose from a form out of the context of the form can elicit such views. A few have already commented with observations that this stance is adopted just after a sweep and that is indeed, one of the ciphers here. There are others, but that's the easiest one. What makes this confounding is that most of the most dramatic poses of Kung Fu are from unusual martial moves where you really need to see the opponent for them to make any sense. Tai Chi's Snake Creeps Down is a classic example. It's a cool pose, but if you don't see the ankle pick in it, it doesn't make a lot of sense.

Bagua's twisting is the key. To be a decent Bagua player, you need the flexibility to twist your hips one way and your shoulder girdle the other way. When you can do that, it opens up a lot of range, particularly for flanking moves. Bagua strikes from the flanks. That's why all the circling. In this way, it's a little like drunken style. It's sort of a sucker punch strategy. If your a trained fighter, you can see through what they are doing and dial in on them to diffuse the 'trick', which is why neither will ever excel in the cage. But only a few of us live in cages.

[YouKnowWho]

But only a few of us live in cages.

When you train Taiji "Snake Creeps Down", you can straight your knee and point sideway.

http://imageshack.us/a/img13/2466/1rx6.jpg

You can also bend your knee and point upward.

http://imageshack.us/a/img33/5343/x7hf.jpg

Which one is more risky?

If you train for

- "health", it won't make any difference because the word "opponent" has no meaning to you.
- "combat", you should always assume that your "opponent" is standing right in front of you.

You may not live in cage, but to train for "combat" and to train for "health" are different. "Combat" application is the only valid guideline for TCMA training. Without it, the TCMA can be evolved into pure dancing.

[-N-]

When you train Taiji "Snake Creeps Down", you can straight your knee and point sideway.

http://imageshack.us/a/img13/2466/1rx6.jpg

You can also bend your knee and point upward.

http://imageshack.us/a/img33/5343/x7hf.jpg

Which one is more risky?

Just use Chi Blast when the guy tries to drop on the side of your knee

[David Jamieson]

Just use Chi Blast when the guy tries to drop on the side of your knee

By the time you are at SCD, the opponent in question has been taken down anyway.

[Alex Córdoba]

I'm gonna go ahead and say it because it's true.

The most controversial TCMA system for all time will always be Shaolin.
Why? Because it's legit and there is a lot of not legit Shaolin out there.
It has more ponderings, writings, heroes, advocates, nay sayers, haters, lovers etc and is more widely known by the general populace without even practicing or knowing what it is.

My moms friends know what shaolin is without knowing what it is. lol

Say bagua to an uninitiated one and you'll get a "what?, Bag what?"
Say Hung Gar, Wing Chun, Tong Long etc and you will get the same wtf look.

But say Shaolin and pretty much anyone knows about it and has a view no matter how small, how wrong, how right or how large. lol

Hung Gar, Wing Chun, Tong Long etc... didn't have David Carradine.

[David Jamieson]

Hung Gar, Wing Chun, Tong Long etc... didn't have David Carradine.

This is true.
The popular mythos will always be what it is.
Real learning is more esoteric even with popular arts. (100 students and really only 5 of them are any good and of those 1 is superior to the rest)
Elite athletes and practitioners are extremely rare.

To be fair, all these styles are from Shaolin.
So, there's that.

[Jimbo]

Say bagua to an uninitiated one and you'll get a "what?, Bag what?"
Say Hung Gar, Wing Chun, Tong Long etc and you will get the same wtf look.

I'll bet the looks you get from saying those aren't as bad as when you say 'Choy Lee Fut'. "What-what-what? Bok Choy Fooooot?" Easy to say correctly but they still mangle the name/pronunciation. Which is why I very rarely mention my style's name, unless someone is knowledgeable about CMA, on the rare occasions I even discuss MA at all anymore. I rarely do so outside of this forum, and I never initiate a conversation about it.

[YouKnowWho]

I'll bet the looks you get from saying those aren't as bad as when you say 'Choy Lee Fut'. "What-what-what? Bok Choy Fooooot?" Easy to say correctly but they still mangle the name/pronunciation. Which is why I very rarely mention my style's name, unless someone is knowledgeable about CMA, on the rare occasions I even discuss MA at all anymore. I rarely do so outside of this forum, and I never initiate a conversation about it.

In a Karate forum someone starts a thread, "Your favorite style." I stated that I like the praying mantis style. Many people added their opinions to it. Last time I checked that thread, all posts that mentioned "praying mantis" were deleted. Worst than that, the moderator even posted the following:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This thread has been re-opened following removal of all the off topic praying mantis posts, which have been shifted into their own (currently closed) thread.

Please keep on topic in this thread. Any efforts to bring the discussion back to praying mantis will be deleted and may result in a ban.

[Kellen Bassette]

Your just stirring up controversy all over the internet, aren't you?

[bawang]

can steroids improve iron plam trainging?

[SavvySavage]

I honestly love the controversy surrounding Shaolin. It's fascinating on so many levels. The controversy keeps me engaged.

But back on topic...

This post began with YKW's questioning of the twisted Bagua stance shown here:

A common misconception about form practice arises the inability to visualize the position and attitude of the opponent. Grabbing some pose from a form out of the context of the form can elicit such views. A few have already commented with observations that this stance is adopted just after a sweep and that is indeed, one of the ciphers here. There are others, but that's the easiest one. What makes this confounding is that most of the most dramatic poses of Kung Fu are from unusual martial moves where you really need to see the opponent for them to make any sense. Tai Chi's Snake Creeps Down is a classic example. It's a cool pose, but if you don't see the ankle pick in it, it doesn't make a lot of sense.

Bagua's twisting is the key. To be a decent Bagua player, you need the flexibility to twist your hips one way and your shoulder girdle the other way. When you can do that, it opens up a lot of range, particularly for flanking moves. Bagua strikes from the flanks. That's why all the circling. In this way, it's a little like drunken style. It's sort of a sucker punch strategy. If your a trained fighter, you can see through what they are doing and dial in on them to diffuse the 'trick', which is why neither will ever excel in the cage. But only a few of us live in cages.

I don't believe the side guard position was meant to be taken literally as a technique. If it was then ba gua is doomed because its easy to see where you will end up.

When you walk the circle your are practicing avoiding the opponents force similar to side stepping in wing chun or counter punching with left hand left foot forward. In the second example you punch with your left as the other right punches with his right: as you punch you step in with you left leg and then step behind the left leg with your right. This will move you out of the way of his incoming punch. Ba gua seeks to avoid force and then attack in his weak 45 degree angle. This attack involves "wrapping" the opponent or in lamens terms grappling of some kind mixed with close striking.

First you must orbit the center and then you must become the center. Wing chun tries to do this but with smaller movements. The issue is that ba gua people overtrain the solo circle walking at the expense of other training.

[jimbob]

I'm jumping in only because I like what I see from bagua and would like to train it one day for my own interest.

I know nothing about it.

I see that circle walking seems to be very important to the art, but then I read about straight line applications for fighting, and other people say you're crazy if you think circle walking is about fighting tactics.

If I think about circle walking in combat, all I can see is that the person is very open to a takedown (but again - just an inexperienced observation).

The straight line stuff from the Gao school makes a lot more combative sense to me.

If the twisting postures are meant to develop specific body mechanics - are there not more efficient ways to do this? It seems like you have to train the body to move in a VERY unnatural way (twisted, sliding step) in order to develop certain qualities. Wouldn't training that is more inline with 'normal' body movement be faster?

I don't know though. I think it would be a nice and interesting aerobic exercise for me when I get bored with running or hitting things.