Rickson Gracie fights Wing Chung

[Silumkid]

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, I can't tell which event that was from the pic but aren't back of the head and spine strikes illegal moves in NHB? From prior posts regarding UFC rules, they are illegal there, right?

As far as (T)Rolls/Ralek goes, I've already accepted his so-called challenge. His answer...I can't travel. That's the biggest cop-out I have ever heard. I guess he thinks he is above the Gracies since they travel to their events.

I also smack up Wushu Chik from time to time and I can say she would take Ralek out, no problem. So it's a good thing he already wimped out. He hasn't actually beaten anyone yet, and would be way too embarassing from him to get his skinny azz handed to him by a girl. I'm afraid it would lead him to come out of the closet, finally.

We are trained in wushu; we must protect the Temple!

[Archangel]

That pic was taken during the Japan Vale Tudo 96 I think. The rules were no eye gouges and no biting, everything else was legal.

[Silumkid]

Cool! Thanks for the info Arch!

We are trained in wushu; we must protect the Temple!

[Ryu]

Bruce, I agree with Arch here.
I don't mean to sound cocky, but I love when my opponents think they can take me out by hitting my spine when I come in.


Ryu




"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage."

[Jaguar Wong]

I think Ralek's superior level of comprehesion, and powers of deduction and reasoning should really inspire everyone to stay in school. :) Knowledge is King!

According to Ralek:
A) I start a fight with Mike Tyson, and he KO's me with a sharp left hook

B) Later on (let's say a month later, if I didn't suffer any really serious injuries), I lose to my brother in a sparring match (let's just say for kicks, he chokes me out at the 5 minute mark) where we allowed heavy contact.

Ralek's conclusion, wow, Tigerstyle is a very tough and skilled fighter, and he can easily get rich in the Pro Boxing circuit, because he defeated one of Mike Tyson's opponents.

... Remember kids, Don't smoke Crack.

Jaguar Wong

"If you learn to balance a tack hammer on your head
then you learn to head up a balanced attack!"
- The Sphinx

[gfhegel21]

Ralek is a weak imitation of Luke Beston from the Underground forum.

[Badger]

Ralek is a weak imitation of the turd I just flushed!

Badger

Support The Economy. Buy A Gun.

[toddbringewatt]

Archangel,

"In the past your posts have been informative and intelligent but forgive me, it's obvious they are not backed up with experience."

Thank you. You're forgiven. And as far as experience goes: A) look up the word "obvious". I think you may have missed something there. B) I'll take my three years of Hwa Rang Do training any day over your argument here:

"Any good striker knows that a good strike requires proper technique and a solid foundation starting from your feet."

Bologna. What it REQUIRES is IMPACT with FORCE and that's it. If you can't deliver impact with force without being solidly on your feet you're in a world of hurt as a martial artist. You can't strike on your back? You can't strike while you're falling? You can't strike in the air? What's the matter with you?

"You have none of this, I repeat none of this while your are being driven 5 feet in the air or driven hard to the mat."

Why, I repeat, why let your opponent get that far? If you'll notice in the photo the Wing Chun gentleman's feet are still on the ground. So the photo doesn't even fit your original premise much less the five feet in the air non-sense.

"Any strike that is attempted at this point is futile"

Why? Suddenly your arms don't work because you aren't upright with your feet on the floor? What kind of a malfunctioning body do you have? Mine seems to work fine in any position.

"you do not any power nevertherless knockout power."

Maybe YOU don't. But I can tell you from EXPERIENCE that if you shoot in on me like that, the point of my elbow is going to do far more damage to your spine than you'd care to experience whether I'm five feet in the air or not.

"The first thing you have to do is defend the takedown, regain your base and then strike."

Screw that. Somebody puts their body within striking distance? Demolish it! Why defend when you can just as easily attack?

You want to test your theory? You try that Gracie maneuver in a fight against even an intermediate Hwa Rang Do practitioner. Let me know how it goes.

"Bruce Leroy. That's who!"

[Archangel]

"I'll take my three years of Hwa Rang Do training any day over your argument here:"

Oh, were going to spout off lineages here, well thats not my cup of tea. I'll ask you though how many times have you tried to stop a takedown from a good experienced grappler. I've been training with wrestlers for a good portion of my life in the sport venue and again with MMA. I've tried it thousands of times with people from various styles and 99% of the time I come up with the same conclusion. You cannot stop a takedown with just striking.

"Bologna. What it REQUIRES is IMPACT with FORCE and that's it. If you can't deliver impact with force without being solidly on your feet you're in a world of hurt as a martial artist. You can't strike on your back? You can't strike while you're falling? You can't strike in the air? What's the matter with you?"

WRONG WRONG WRONG, every good striker I have trained with insists that power starts from your feet goes up your body and is transfered to the strike. Of course you can still strike while being taken down but strike EFFECTIVELY..... NO. Actually lets do a forum poll here, anybody thats reading this please respond.

"Why, I repeat, why let your opponent get that far? If you'll notice in the photo the Wing Chun gentleman's feet are still on the ground. So the photo doesn't even fit your original premise much less the five feet in the air non-sense."

That is a STILL photo of a takedown in its initial stages. I have that fight on tape, in fact Rickson drives Levicki from the center of the ring through the ropes onto the floor. David didn't "let" Rickson take him down; he couldn't properly defend it, he couldn't strike effectively so he was forced to the ground.

"Why? Suddenly your arms don't work because you aren't upright with your feet on the floor? What kind of a malfunctioning body do you have? Mine seems to work fine in any position."

Because your strikes are not effective nor powerful at this point. If you don't know how to defend the takedown you're better off trying to break your fall and not get knocked out from the takedown.

"Maybe YOU don't. But I can tell you from EXPERIENCE that if you shoot in on me like that, the point of my elbow is going to do far more damage to your spine than you'd care to experience whether I'm five feet in the air or not."

Please tell me about your experience, I'd love to hear about what you've done.

"Screw that. Somebody puts their body within striking distance? Demolish it! Why defend when you can just as easily attack?"

It's so easy to sit there and theorise what you would do. I've seen 12 years of MMA fights, all of which are documented and easily viewable on video tape. literally thousands of fights and all of them say that you are wrong. I've never seen what you are implying work.

"You want to test your theory? You try that Gracie maneuver in a fight against even an intermediate Hwa Rang Do practitioner. Let me know how it goes."

Actually there is a guy on this forum named Knifefighter, hes in your area and he can set one of you guys up with MMA fighters for professional fights any rules you want. Leave him a message, and tape it if you can.

[Badger]

It's easy to say you would do this or do that against a grappler or whatever by just watching & critisizing a video.


Hwa Rang Do? Isn't that Tae Kwon Do with "pretty" uniforms?

i ;)


Badger

Support The Economy. Buy A Gun.

[JWTAYLOR]

Mr. Leroy, striking the spine with effect is quite possible to do during a takedown attempt. It is quite difficult to do during a takedown.

JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

[joedoe]

I'd have to agree - you should first be stopping the takedown attempt, then counter-attacking once you have nullified the takedown. When someone is coming at you with a lot of momentum behind them it is not as easy to stop them as you might think. As any footballer.

cxxx[]:::::::::::>
You're fu(king up my chi

[Braden]

The argument is clearly not as one-sided as AA and Bruce are suggesting. However, for the most part, AA is clearly correct. When you're in mid-air being bowled over by someone, you're not going to be hitting them particularly hard.

In regards to being able (or not) to stop a takedown with striking alone...

How do you define striking?

Is striking maintaining distance and out 'kickboxing' your opponent? This seems to be how most people define striking - however, I think this is a useless definition, as if this is the case, I don't think striking is ever a realistic strategy for ANY combat scenario. IMHO, skillfull combat (whether standing or on the ground, 'striking' or 'grappling') is won via offbalancing, positioning, maintaining your posture, and breaking your opponents posture. This cannot be done via 'out kickboxing' someone. So my definition includes a variety of methods of opponent control other than siezing and locking and/or lifting/throwing (which is what I would call grappling). By this definition I would say you can counter a shoot with striking. By the standard definition can you? You CAN, but I you can't rely on it happening. And when your life what is at stake, you'd better rely on things you can, uh... rely on.

[Wongsifu]

as i understand it this argument about hitting someone during the takedown has been played over and over again soo many times that it drives me nuts. In essence all i can say is most of the fighters nowadays that enter these competitions cant knock out the opposing fighter face to fact let alone whilst the guy is attempting a take down. However with all logic still intact and not succumbing to the stupidity of the undefendable takedown, the timing needed to react to a takedown is the same as one needed to react to a punch if you can block a punch you can try sometihng during a takedown, an i would much rather be driving my elbow into the back of the guy doing the takedwon than being the guy exposing my back to the enemy.

Besides what sort of stupid comment is it to say "
"ITS QUITE IMPOSSIBLE TO HIT WHILST FLYING IN THE AIR BACKWARDS FROM THE TAKEDOWN" when was th elast time you heard a fighter say "yeah well you know i blocked the punch after it hit me." duh the whole point is reacting before the move is executed fully.

this argument is the epitome of fighting versus grapplign though isnt it? , it all boils down that if you wanna beat a grappler without grappling you gotta have a punch that can ko fast, without this power , you cant win, wether its while youre squaring off to him , or whilst he attempts the takedown you step back forward sideways and try to hit him to ko him. The bottom line is you need ko power.

what do bin laden and general custer have in common????
They're both wondering where the fu(k all of those tomahawks are coming from. - donated by mojo

[Archangel]

Braden

Why do you always have to make things so difficult ;) hehe but in essence you're right.


Wong oh Wong

Heres a list of the strikers in the UFC AGAIN


Orlando Weit - Muay Thai
1992 World Kickboxing Champion
1988 European Champ
1985 Dutch Champ


Gerard Gordeau - Savate, Kyokoshin Kai
90-92 World Boxe Francais HW Champ
8 Yeays Dutch National Karate Champ
Founding memeber of the original K1


James Warring - Boxing
IBF Cruiserweight Champ


Melton Bowen - Boxing
WBC Intercontinental Champ
2 X New York State Golden Gloves Champ


Pat Smith - Karate, Kickboxing, TKD
2 X World Sabaki Champion
KICK Super Heavyweight Champ


Jerome Turcan - Savate
#6 Ranked WKA Muay Thai Cruiserweight in the world


Moti Horenstein - Karate, Kickboxing
86-88 Israeli Kickboxing Champion
1996 OYAMA Shidokan Champion


Mo Smith
WKA Heavyweight kickboxing Champ
WKA MT Champ

If they couldn't do it tell me how are you going to.