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Thread: Straight sword v Broad sword

  1. #1
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    Straight sword v Broad sword

    I can remember hearing somewhere that back in the day...

    Broad sword was a weapon more for soldiers and the straight sword was more for nobility/generals etc, requiring higher skill level.

    I may be on the wrong tip with this happy to be corrected...


  2. #2
    That's interesting! I have never heard of that before! What is the source of this info?

    Also which is your personal preference and why?

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  3. #3
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    A Jian is a proper sword. Double sided. Requires finesse to wield properly with skill.

    The Chinese broadsword (Big knife) is a hacking machete more than anything else.
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    Hey There,

    The western names are confused. Really the Jian is the broadsword (it is double sided and traditionally often wide) The Dao is a curved sword with a single edge and so is a Sabre.

    A lot of what we see of the Jian is a modern interpretation.

    You see there is the scholars Jian, which is long and thin and useful only really for duelling. Then there is the War-sword. This is also a Jian, but it is quite short and very wide. It has a thick metal cylinder running down the center which makes it strong and very heavy. When you stab the fingers touch the blade, one finger either side of the cylinder, this is where we get the classic sword-fingers from (it is the sword grip for stabs, there are many grips). This is a very old type of sword, but it is an effective battlefield weapon (of course i do not know this from experience, it is Chuanshuo, orally passed down).

    The techniques of the War-sword are the same as the standard Jian, but it does not 'Flower' (spin). Form is performed somewhat differently in that it requires very strong positioning so every stance is perfect, exact and held extended instead of flowing.

    Needless to say today most people only use the scholars Jian. There is also the double hand sword, the long tassle sword and 1000 other speciality variations.

    BUT, the Jian is much harder to use than the sabre (what you think of as the broadsword). Why? The sabre is very strong, it can be used to hack and slash and block attacks directly rather than deflect, as such it is easier to train someone to use. So while a foot soldier may use a sabre a General might use a sword. This is not to say the sabre does not have good techniques too, of course it does.

    So the Sabre is by far the more common weapon on the battle field. The sabre is also very effective against other weapons. When you do your Sabre forms, it is likely many of the techniques are designed to defeat a spear as opposed to another sabre, because the spear is the most common and dangerous weapon.

    The war sword is also effective against other weapons. The Scholars Jian is not really strong enough to be.

    There is a saying in China; 'Dao Zuo Hei, Jian Zuo Ming' ( I think). That is, The Sabre is wielded darkly, the sword brightly. This is both literally and metaphorically true.

    Metaphorically because the sabre is often moved in such a way that it is hidden behind the body or shield. This way its approach can not be seen which is convenient because it requires long slashes to be effective. The Sword however is wielded and held in plain view. This is because it relies on its changeability, cutting precisely over short distances, so it does not need to disguise its approach. Rather let the opponent intercept if they can and move around it. This is why the Jian is much harder to use.

    Literally it is also true. This is because at night time in the dark the Sabre is the best choice of all the weapons. Night in ancient times is pitch black. You cannot stab or do vertical attacks because they have less chance of success. Long horizontal sweeps at mid level are the choice at night. They cannot be ducked or jumped. So often you will find there is a YeXing Sabre form in many schools. This is the 'Nightwalkers sabre'.
    Last edited by RenDaHai; 09-16-2013 at 06:23 AM.

  5. #5
    Great stuff, thanks.

  6. #6
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    The broadsword translation is one of my major Kung Fu pet peeves

    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    The western names are confused. Really the Jian is the broadsword (it is double sided and traditionally often wide) The Dao is a curved sword with a single edge and so is a Sabre.
    You're spot on with this, but you cannot change language. As a translator of Kung Fu as well as a product of Western fencing, I wish I could kick the arse of the first person who called a dao a broadsword. It was a complete mistranslation and it stuck. The term 'broadsword' arose to distinguish them from the more advanced thinner blades from the earlier thicker (or broader) ones. It was used primarily for straight blades.

    The distinction between dao and jian by infantry and officer, as well as by level of sophistication in technique and effectiveness in battle, is really simple. But I think we've grown so detached from the realities of swordsmanship that people make up all sorts of ****amamie tales based on marginal observations. To keep it simple, it's much easier to handle a single-edged sword over a double-edged sword. This is true on every level. You need only to work with a live blade to see. What's more, it's far more difficult to make double-edged sword. Remember, real swords were made by hand, so to achieve symmetry and uniformity in a double-edged sword took far more skill. So with a jian, you had a more expensive weapon that required far more training to master. This made the jian more the property of the gentry who could afford to purchase such a weapon and pay for a teacher.

    Like so many things, it's really all about the financials. Jian are considered more 'upper class' because for the most part, only the upper class could afford them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by GeneChing View Post
    What's more, it's far more difficult to make double-edged sword. Remember, real swords were made by hand, so to achieve symmetry and uniformity in a double-edged sword took far more skill. So with a jian, you had a more expensive weapon that required far more training to master. This made the jian more the property of the gentry who could afford to purchase such a weapon and pay for a teacher.
    This is very true. I meant to add this to my original post but forgot it halfway through (writing a lot).

    The sabre can be made very cheaply, there are a huge range of qualities from very poor indeed. It can basically be a sharpened sheet of metal. So they can be made en masse. As you rightly say the double edged weapon requires skill and expense to make, so it is reserved.

    Generally amongst the Wulin the Jian is considered the most difficult weapon, but also the best.

  8. #8
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    Agreed, RDH

    Take it from a former swordmaker - it's a ***** to make a double-edged sword symmetric. You have to line everything up along two planes - and then line those two planes up with each other. With a single-edged sword, it's only one plane of symmetry.

    The same class distinction occurs in Europe to some degree, although not quite until the move towards thinner blades (away from broadswords). In Asia, there's this totally different cultural shift with the symbolic power of the shamshir and the kirpan, as well as the katana in their respective cultures. And then, of course, there's the kris, but we'll label that an outlier.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post

    Generally amongst the Wulin the Jian is considered the most difficult weapon, but also the best.
    jian needs accuracy. there are 100 people screaming and moving around you, and you have to hit a target on your opponent 1mm wide. the most difficult to use weapon is the worst. jian has been out of use for over 2000 years. it is a ceremonial weapon.
    Last edited by bawang; 09-16-2013 at 11:08 AM.

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  10. #10
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    Cheers - thanks for the info guys, knew you would be all over this

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blacktiger View Post
    Cheers - thanks for the info guys, knew you would be all over this
    you are welcome, my son.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bawang View Post
    jian needs accuracy. there are 100 people screaming and moving around you, and you have to hit a target on your opponent 1mm wide. the most difficult to use weapon is the worst. jian has been out of use for over 2000 years. it is a ceremonial weapon.
    The spear also requires hitting a precise target and yet it is the King of battlefield weapons, not just in China but across the world. It is easy to use for a beginner but at the same time extremely difficult to use well.

    Not out of use, the Jian has always been the sidearm of choice for the proficient. Not just during battle, but at all times. Again I am talking not about the Scholars thin Jian but the battle Jian. It is twice as wide and has a metal pipe running down the centre. It can be used for simple chopping and hacking as well as precise sword work, so it really tops the sabre. Its a very strong weapon designed for fighting against short, long and heavy weapons alike.

    I see your point, but thats why we differentiated between classes. The ancient battlefield is something none of us can be familier with now, but certainly it was a different experience for officers and for soldiers.

    And weapons were not just for the battlefield. Just walking to the nearest town you open yourself to 10,000 dangers. People assume this has changed nowadays, but ever walk down a street in rural china? The cars are just as dangerous and deadly as bandits and tigers could be. I feel a lot better carrying a stick.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    The spear also requires hitting a precise target and yet it is the King of battlefield weapons, not just in China but across the world. It is easy to use for a beginner but at the same time extremely difficult to use well.
    because spear wall

    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    Not out of use, the Jian has always been the sidearm of choice for the proficient. Not just during battle, but at all times. Again I am talking not about the Scholars thin Jian but the battle Jian. It is twice as wide and has a metal pipe running down the centre. It can be used for simple chopping and hacking as well as precise sword work, so it really tops the sabre. Its a very strong weapon designed for fighting against short, long and heavy weapons alike.
    dats a mace bro. its technically a sword-mace

    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    I see your point, but thats why we differentiated between classes. The ancient battlefield is something none of us can be familier with now, but certainly it was a different experience for officers and for soldiers.
    im familiar bro

    im familar
    Last edited by bawang; 09-16-2013 at 06:30 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bawang View Post
    because spear wall

    dats a mace bro. its technically a sword-mace

    im familiar bro

    im familar
    I like the spear wall... But this is lance strategy for a large scale battle on a battlefield. There are a lot of arenas where you could not use this. I am sure there are similar strategies for smaller skirmishes though. These group strategies used to part of Kung Fu training, there are formulas for battle arrays and principles that go with them, but I have not learned these things and I don't think many people practice them or know them any more. Would love to learn more.

    It may be some sort of sword mace, but I have seen swords passed down in families and donated to museums. This is the type of Jian people have. Not the thin one. This Jian is ugly and very heavy, but it is not the same as the whip mace. It is a fantastic weapon.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    It may be some sort of sword mace, but I have seen swords passed down in families and donated to museums. This is the type of Jian people have. Not the thin one. This Jian is ugly and very heavy, but it is not the same as the whip mace. It is a fantastic weapon.
    the sword mace is angular and shatters, the whip mace is round and deforms.
    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    I like the spear wall... But this is lance strategy for a large scale battle on a battlefield. There are a lot of arenas where you could not use this.
    because Chinese people carried 18 feet spears to work
    Last edited by bawang; 09-16-2013 at 07:33 PM.

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