Lan Sao--does it violate the WC law of economy of motion?

[LaterthanNever]

I'm not slamming an individual technique..honest.

When I see how Lan Sao is done..namely almost at a right angle to bar over the top of the arm..it seems to travel almost at an arc(not a straight line).

Does this violate the law of traveling in a straight line? Thoughts?

[Vajramusti]

I'm not slamming an individual technique..honest.

When I see how Lan Sao is done..namely almost at a right angle to bar over the top of the arm..it seems to travel almost at an arc(not a straight line).

Does this violate the law of traveling in a straight line? Thoughts?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What? I don't know what you have seen. When done right lan sao is a beautiful wing chun motion for
attack or defense.

[Eric_H]

I'm not slamming an individual technique..honest.

When I see how Lan Sao is done..namely almost at a right angle to bar over the top of the arm..it seems to travel almost at an arc(not a straight line).

Does this violate the law of traveling in a straight line? Thoughts?

Can you show a vid example? Not everyone uses the same tool the same way. What you are describing sounds more like what was known as a "Cau Sao" when i did Ip family WC.

In HFY, we often use Lan Sao as part of our box theory strategy, meaning we can use two hands simultaneously or as a tool for crashing in the the opponent when there is a gap in structure/timing.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Eric_H;1248105]Can you show a vid example? Not everyone uses the same tool the same way. What you are describing sounds more like what was known as a "Cau Sao" when i did Ip family WC.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------lan sao is completely different from cau sao. Sounds like he may have seen some bad lan sao where the body structure is not properly integrated.

[KPM]

I'm not slamming an individual technique..honest.

When I see how Lan Sao is done..namely almost at a right angle to bar over the top of the arm..it seems to travel almost at an arc(not a straight line).

Does this violate the law of traveling in a straight line? Thoughts?

Sorry. But I don't think I understand your question. Can you explain what you mean a little better? I don't see Lan Sau as traveling in an arc, which I understand to mean a "loopy" path. So maybe you can explain what you mean by "traveling in an arc" and give an example?

[Happy Tiger]

Sifu Fred Kwok of Jiu Wan house has an interesting poon sau roll that is more lan sau than bong on the fly. Makes for interesting solutions to chi sau problems.

[anerlich]

Does this violate the law of traveling in a straight line?

Wing Chun is a pretty lawless town.

It also contains lots of circular or spiralling movements.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

IMHO, there are no LAWS for Wing Chun only guidelines or suggestions.
I like to use analogies such as the alphabet and writing so here is my view, fwiw;

Wing Chun is designed around certain concepts and principles which make it work. However, nothing is written in stone. If it were then we would have someone, a particular lineage for example, which could make the system work for them and their members all of the time. However that is not the case. WC is full of seeming contradictions; No weight on the front leg, 70/30 weight distribution or 50/50, stance turning on the balls, center and heel of the foot and turning one foot at a time or both at the same time. Each approach has it's own reasoning and some fit different individuals better than others.

To say that Wing Chun only operates along a straight line would limit one to only things which fall into that category. How then would one practice a Huen Bo or circle step such as found in the BT?

Getting back to the writing analogy: Each of us has 26 characters or letters in the English language alphabet. In writing there are several accepted rules of grammar which are taught for students learning to write. In learning, say a class in creative writing for example, a student is graded on their understanding and application of the rules of grammar taught to them. However, many successful writers often ignore such rules and go outside the box to create riveting novels or other works read by the masses.

A person often thought of as a great exponent of Wing Chun once advised students and practitioner's to not "become slaves to the system". Think outside of the box and perhaps you will find a richer treasure than what appears on the surface. Besides, if everyone agreed that Wing Chun was straight lines or triangles without circles what would we have to argue about?

[YouKnowWho]

This thread just remind me a Taiji thread in another forum. In that thread, someone said,

- "according to Taiji principle, you should always keep your head vertical up".
- "your center of gravity should not shift over your leading leg knee."

If you drop a $100 bill on the ground, you can make any Taiji master to violate that principle.

[KPM]

Hello,

IMHO, there are no LAWS for Wing Chun only guidelines or suggestions.
I like to use analogies such as the alphabet and writing so here is my view, fwiw;

Good post Dave. I agree with you. I think the diversity in Wing Chun is pretty cool. I had an exchange with someone recently who said he considered it all "just Wing Chun" and wanted to know what was wrong with that. I pointed out that there was notable differences between Pin Sun WCK, Ip Man WCK, Hung Fa Yi, Pan Man WCK, etc. Saying its all "just Wing Chun" is like saying Salsa, Squaredancing, Ballroom, and Disco are all "just dancing." Diversity is a good thing. I wouldn't want to see us all doing the same thing. That would be boring!

[EternalSpring]

This thread just remind me a Taiji thread in another forum. In that thread, someone said,

- "according to Taiji principle, you should always keep your head vertical up".
- "your center of gravity should not shift over your leading leg knee."

If you drop a $100 bill on the ground, you can make any Taiji master to violate that principle.

Tai Chi master would use "snake creeps down" and snatch that bill.

[LFJ]

When I see how Lan Sao is done..namely almost at a right angle to bar over the top of the arm..it seems to travel almost at an arc(not a straight line).

Done by whom? I've never seen it done in an arcing motion.

[LoneTiger108]

Good post Dave. I agree with you. I think the diversity in Wing Chun is pretty cool. I had an exchange with someone recently who said he considered it all "just Wing Chun" and wanted to know what was wrong with that. I pointed out that there was notable differences between Pin Sun WCK, Ip Man WCK, Hung Fa Yi, Pan Man WCK, etc. Saying its all "just Wing Chun" is like saying Salsa, Squaredancing, Ballroom, and Disco are all "just dancing." Diversity is a good thing. I wouldn't want to see us all doing the same thing. That would be boring!

Man... you just can't get over my opinions can you?

So let me ask you... if we are talking about Lansau I would take a wild guess that Pin Sun has Lansau, Ip Man has Lansau, Hung Fa Yi has Lansau, Pan Nam has Lansau... right?

So, what is Wing Chun?

I would take a guess that the term Lansau is Wing Chun and all these 'areas and individuals' simply have their idea on how to teach Lansau and what they like to use it for... and there is nothing wrong in that as long as it actually relates to the term Lan.

The problem comes when individual expressions are talked about as being the 'only way' and everyone else is wrong, especially when they teach applications or ideas that have nothing to do with the word itself.

Brings up the question, what is Lan? I can only guess everyone is using different Chinese characters and if this is the case... well... we may as well practise Mantis!

[KPM]

Man... you just can't get over my opinions can you?

---Sorry Spencer, but not everything is about you! Our recent conversation was still in mind. Dave said something that made me go.."yeah, that's what I've been thinking recently!" So I agreed with him. Simple as that. I haven't been agonizing over your opinions on anything.

So let me ask you... if we are talking about Lansau I would take a wild guess that Pin Sun has Lansau, Ip Man has Lansau, Hung Fa Yi has Lansau, Pan Nam has Lansau... right?

So, what is Wing Chun?

---WCK is more than a collection of techniques. Its how you approach the fight and put the total package together that makes the real differences.


The problem comes when individual expressions are talked about as being the 'only way' and everyone else is wrong,

I agree! And when you say that everything is "just Wing Chun", then you open a huge possibility for someone seeing a version that differs from their own and saying..."that's not Wing Chun! You aren't doing it the way I learned it, so it can't possibly be real Wing Chun!!!!" Rather we should see that Wing Chun is diverse and that there is more than one way to interpret or apply some things. Its not all "just Wing Chun." There is a PBWSLVT approach to Wing Chun. There is a Leung Ting approach to Wing Chun. There is a Ku Lo Pin Sun approach to Wing Chun. And each may see things from a different angle and have different application. The problem comes when someone from one of those systems decides that there way is the ONLY way and everyone else is wrong. The problem comes when someone fails to acknowledge the diversity in Wing Chun. You think saying that everyone is "just Wing Chun" will eliminate that problem? I think it adds to the problem.


Brings up the question, what is Lan? I can only guess everyone is using different Chinese characters and this is the case... well

Brings up the question that I've asked a couple of times now....I wouldn't want to see everyone doing their Wing Chun exactly the same way. Would you???? That's what is implied when you say that its all "just Wing Chun" and try to ignore differences between systems.

But we digress.

[LaterthanNever]

First..

I am not a sifu in Wing Chun. I will glady defer to the knowledge of anyone here who is.

Second..

re: why I am asking this question or what am I basing it on?

a.) The applications I remember in Chum Kiu are to transition from arm out straight(ie: Biu Ji?) to a right angle over the top of the opponents arm. If I am understanding correctly..the line then becomes the equivalent of a left turn or right turn if one were driving in their car straight and then made a turn around a corner. Well..my understanding in my training is that circular movements(ie: roundhouse punch? uppercut?) are not valued due to the fact that circles or semi circles take longer to transmit.

b.) In Chum Kiu there is a segment where the defender turns body while arm is in lan sau sideways so the whole body makes a semi circle..presumably to ward off an attack done to either the side or posterior of the torso. Well..doesn't the turn aspect of lan sau(in addition to example "a") listed above violate the "straight line" concept of WC?

c.)I've seen a "wan lan sau" in GM Ip Chuns' writings whereby the lan sau is done with both arms. Therefore, it seems as iif there are two traveling yet superimposed arcs with the arms(one on top of the other).