Is Self Defense a Myth?

[-N-]

When you swing your Guan Dao, do you have "intention" to cut your opponent's body in half? If you do that, is it self defense?

This look like "killing" to me.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNjkxMjkwNzY=.html

This looks like dance to me.

I do not see intent or force in the attacks.

Many of spear's attacks were deliberately off target and without penetration or piercing speed.

Dai do's attacks also had no intent or force. There was no body weight thrown into the cuts. Attacks were slow and deliberately held back.

There is a way to do two man weapons more realistically.

[bawang]

When you swing your Guan Dao, do you have "intention" to cut your opponent's body in half? If you do that, is it self defense?

This look like "killing" to me.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNjkxMjkwNzY=.html

this is circus clown toothpick spear from opera.

this is real two man form
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wX82siCRQyk

[Kellen Bassette]

But what do you mean by that? I have defended myself, I am sure most people on this forum have. Lots of people do it and all the time. Mostly it is in small ways. I think you are just thinking of very extreme situations.

I'm not talking about particular situations. You seem to think I mean nobody defends themselves in real life. This is not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying the purpose of Quan really is not about practicing for defending yourself in a bar/street altercation, ect...

At least that was not the intent...I'm trying to avoid the Kung Fu is all things to all people discussion, that everything always digresses to...I'm talking about empty hand boxing....

'MA were not originally....' This is a foolish statement. Of course many martial arts were about self defence, and many created specifically for that purpose. I don't know where this idea comes from.

Gong Fu (empty hand), Muay Thai, Bokh, and other arts were exercises and training methods used in ancient military to condition and harden troops, to strengthen their spirit. The real fighting was done with weapons and strategies of the times. The spirit and mindset of this training is not compatible with mindset of modern ideas of self defense. Modern mindset of "self defense" is not conducive to teaching someone to fight for realz.

Fundamental Gong Fu training and sparring/sport fighting serve to harden the individual and create a "warrior spirit." (I don't like to use that term, but I believe this was the philosophy and a common thread in Asian MA.)

When old style military methods become outdated, people confuse demonstration, theater and ritual with fighting. Kung Fu is marketed for "self defense" to stay relevant as old military methods have fallen out of favor. The West never understood the origins to begin with; and have an especially skewed perception of what Kung Fu (Chinese empty hand boxing) was/is.

But how do you not see this is Moronic. IF Wushu was only War Arts then what was passed down would have been only military strategies like the spear wall that bawang posted. Group formations and training methods. Sure there is this. But the fact most of Wushu that is passed down is 1 on 1 empty hand technique implies heavily that it is intended for self defence.

But I believe it is not intended for self defense. I believe it is intended for hardening and strengthening a man. Making him capable of fighting another man. This is a different mindset than "learn to fight so we don't have to," "protect yourself from muggers," ect.

It may seem like I'm splitting hairs, but I believe the distinction is important. I believe the two methods produce two very different mindsets; which lead to two very different outcomes.

[bigopen]

I am becoming increasingly uncomfortable with the term "self defense."

It's used across the board to sell martial arts, but I doubt it really has much to do, historically, with traditional war arts. We all know "self defense" has long been used to persuade Western parents into putting their kids into a MA program, but are we drinking our own Kool Aid?

If you think about it, "self defense" is almost counter intuitive to the mindset of fighting. The military drills, conditioning and desensitizing of orthodox Gong Fu seems awfully far removed from anti-bullying and protecting yourself from rapists. I'm not saying those are bad things, but are we really to believe that comes from the same art as forging the body and mind into a weapon?

What kind of person is going to start a street fight with me? More likely than not it will be an Alpha male type. It will probably be an aggressive person that feels they are stronger than me. Putting yourself on defense starts you off with a losing strategy...you really need a mindset, not unlike the aggressors, to deal with this type of aggression.

Sure, it's a cliche that the best defense is a good offense, but do you really think your going to deflect and parry your way to victory? Going to save it all up for the one big finish? The attacker, is generally in a better position than the defender.

I think if you look at it objectively, the whole "self defense" thing isn't really what the tradition was.

'Self defence' is what ever you interpret it as. English is so limited as a language when it comes to things like this; we need either a new word or a longer description of the subject that you want to discuss.

I've talked my way out of many situations that in other cases would have ended in fighting (I worked as a nightclub manager & security for two years), but it somehow isn't seen as 'self defence'.

If I'd gone to some reality based training like krav or kapap etc etc I would have probably been drilled with a routine for confrontation that would have very quickly put the situation into the 'fight' context. As I've said in other posts, unless you are aware of the very subtle changes in atmosphere, body language and posturing etc, you won't see it coming.

If you are a mouthy ******* when you are drunk and keep getting beaten up, you don't need self defence, you need to train In the art of not being a mouthy *******.

There's nothing wrong with many of the applications you find in TCMA. You see them mirrored in the reality based stuff like Krav because they work. The difference is that those guys pay to practice eye gouging and have balls in their face for an hour, I pay to see my friends and teacher and learn a bit more about TCMA. If TCMA classes scaled back the ji ben gong, qi gong, stretching etc and went in to straight reality based scenarios with the more effective applications in low light, multiple opponents etc, there's no reason why it wouldn't be just as effective as a form of 'self defence' per say.

BUT the catch is if you are at reality based, high aggression classes three times per week, reinforcing a huge fight response, whether you like it or not your body language will begin to change. The Chinese call it 'Flaring up the Liver' - The look in your eyes, your build, your walk, even your smell (laughs expected). You will start to come across in a slightly different way and THAT WILL attract attention. You think that you will escape the cycle by training but by doing so you just encourage it more. It's a very fine balance. That's real Kung Fu; finding that balance and escaping that cycle of victim turned aggressor. Do some research on how quickly you could mess your own life up by killing someone who just wanted some money for drugs or food because you went into ((((BEAST MODE)))) when they pulled out a knife or gun.

So in my opinion self defence is pretty much a nonsense term.

Work on your mind and let the rest play out. Amitoufo!

[Kellen Bassette]

fear the bbc.

I am terrified of the British Broadcasting Corporation.

[Kellen Bassette]

BUT the catch is if you are at reality based, high aggression classes three times per week, reinforcing a huge fight response, whether you like it or not your body language will begin to change. The Chinese call it 'Flaring up the Liver' - The look in your eyes, your build, your walk, even your smell (laughs expected). You will start to come across in a slightly different way and THAT WILL attract attention.

Yes, I think you are right here.

That smell, by the way, is ball sweat.

[YouKnowWho]

Let me ask a simple question. In self defense, do you punch at your opponent's face?

If the answer is

- yes, will you punch differently in self defense than in fighting?
- no, what other techniques do you use to take care your self defense problem?

Do anybody like to answer this question?

Also, in court, if you told the judge, "I didn't kill him. I just help him to go to heaven." Will you get less sentence for that?

[Kellen Bassette]

Do anybody like to answer this question?

People want to make it more different than it is, so they can justify not training in a realistic fashion.

[YouKnowWho]

People want to make it more different than it is, so they can justify not training in a realistic fashion.

Those self defense guys assume that their problem is always in street. Since most of the street guys don't train MA, They can assume anything should work.

If you assume that your enemies is boxer, MT guy, wrestler, MMA guy, ... you will need to train a complete different set of skills.

Do self defense people train "single leg counters" or do they just train "how to break a wrist grip"? I assume they will never train "single leg" because it will be considered as "offense".

[lkfmdc]

on a related topic

it is WELL KNOWN in NYC that many of the British ladies here are just fascinated in in love with the BBC...

I leave it to you to decipher

[-N-]

this is circus clown toothpick spear from opera.

this is real two man form
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wX82siCRQyk

Good usage there, especially towards the end.

The other month we made the students drill similar intercept, expulsion, hand attacks.

They were learning a form, but didn't have the right feel and timing of the weapon, so we made them practice the usage against each other.

[FullPotentialMA]

If you think about it, "self defense" is almost counter intuitive to the mindset of fighting. The military drills, conditioning and desensitizing of orthodox Gong Fu seems awfully far removed from anti-bullying and protecting yourself from rapists. I'm not saying those are bad things, but are we really to believe that comes from the same art as forging the body and mind into a weapon?
....
Sure, it's a cliche that the best defense is a good offense, but do you really think your going to deflect and parry your way to victory? Going to save it all up for the one big finish? The attacker, is generally in a better position than the defender.

I think if you look at it objectively, the whole "self defense" thing isn't really what the tradition was.

I respectfully disagree. Self defense (as well as protection of one's master from harm, i.e., body-guarding) are some of the key tenants of martial arts, be in Kung Fu, Karate or others. 99% of the "trick" is to not get into a situation where force is needed. If we look at modern equivalents, the Secret Service spends a lot of time strategizing how to protect a VIP -- where can the threats from from? What kind of assets can we bring to bear to be in a superior position? etc. I.e., a lot of the "self defense" is mental, and a lot of it is in the awareness of risk potential.

Protecting oneself, or one's loves ones is not that much different. Being aware (i.e., not being in my smartphone, SMSing with my friends while I am walking in a dark alley in a bad area of town late at night) and looking for strategic force multipliers (e.g., a close exit in a bar; a shield I can use for hiding if shots are fired; an improvised weapon I can use if the fight is already going) are key. Especially the awareness part.

[Kellen Bassette]

I respectfully disagree.

You don't have to disagree respectfully, no-one else here does...

[RenDaHai]

I am terrified of the British Broadcasting Corporation.

Me too, they have a horrendous left socialist bias which infects the minds of a nation.

[RenDaHai]

But I believe it is not intended for self defense. I believe it is intended for hardening and strengthening a man.

What is it about? Why do they pass down these skills in a Wushu clan? Safety.

Safety. Safety from Injury and illness and the ravages of time through conditioning of the body. Safety from the passions of the self by conditioning of the mind through meditation. Safety from evil men through the martial arts. Safety from Karma by right action. Safety from the ire of others by correct ethics. Safety from punishment by adherence to the laws. Safety, this is the art of the character 'Wu'. This is why it is passed down in civilian homes. Safety is the most important thing for a good life. This is why Wushu is a life skill. Self defence is of course a part of this.

These things are as important today as they ever were. Some things we can modify with the changing times, this is why much of the ancient warfare techniques have not survived so well. But two ordinary people who have a disagreement and fight, that hasn't changed much. Many of the techniques in a style are specifically for this situation. They have stayed the same.

A mistake a lot of people make is to consider these Wushu styles as 'Martial Art'. This is a poor translation. These Clans pass down a collection of skills, not all of the skills are related to Martial Arts. They are a collection of 'Gong' skills. To consider them as a 'Martial art' is not correct as that is only part of the skills passed down.