Is Self Defense a Myth?

[Kellen Bassette]

I am becoming increasingly uncomfortable with the term "self defense."

It's used across the board to sell martial arts, but I doubt it really has much to do, historically, with traditional war arts. We all know "self defense" has long been used to persuade Western parents into putting their kids into a MA program, but are we drinking our own Kool Aid?

If you think about it, "self defense" is almost counter intuitive to the mindset of fighting. The military drills, conditioning and desensitizing of orthodox Gong Fu seems awfully far removed from anti-bullying and protecting yourself from rapists. I'm not saying those are bad things, but are we really to believe that comes from the same art as forging the body and mind into a weapon?

What kind of person is going to start a street fight with me? More likely than not it will be an Alpha male type. It will probably be an aggressive person that feels they are stronger than me. Putting yourself on defense starts you off with a losing strategy...you really need a mindset, not unlike the aggressors, to deal with this type of aggression.

Sure, it's a cliche that the best defense is a good offense, but do you really think your going to deflect and parry your way to victory? Going to save it all up for the one big finish? The attacker, is generally in a better position than the defender.

I think if you look at it objectively, the whole "self defense" thing isn't really what the tradition was.

[YouKnowWho]

To be honest, I truly don't know what "self defense" is. When people talk about it, it sounds like they are the pray of some preditor. I like to be the tiger that trying to eat my opponent alive and not the other way around.

If you attack me, I will jump back to regain my distance. I'll then attack you. It's you that will need to learn some "self defense". This is the kind of attitude that I like to train for myself.

This is one of my favor jokes.

A: I'm going to walk in Central Park.
B: It's not safe to go there. People always get robbed.
A: That's why I'm going over there. I'm a bit short in cash.

It may be mucho talk but life will be much more fun if we can look at it from a positive angle.

[Kellen Bassette]

I like to be the tiger that trying to eat my opponent alive and not the other way around.

How can you make someone a skilled fighter with a victim mentality?

[Raipizo]

I agree Kellen. You have to believe what you practice and have faith, not not be prey but at the same time don't be and idiot and be an aggressor. Even having confidence in your ability could change the outcome.

[YouKnowWho]

How can you make someone a skilled fighter with a victim mentality?

In my Chinese wrestling field, people

- will get their credit by playing offense and lose.
- won't get their credit by playing defense and win.

The reason is if you play offense and lose, one day you will be good in your offense skill. If you play defense and win, you will never be good in your offense skill. Some Chinese wrestling teachers won't even teach defense skill until 3 years later, They want their student to attack, attack, and still attack.

[RenDaHai]

You see, I am the opposite, I find your point of view very hard to understand.

Perhaps you can explain what you believe a fight to be? What from your experience leads you to believe it is this way?

It takes two people to fight, if you are a good person it is likely you will be attacked, not the other way around, nor will you willingly enter into an even fight.

When someone attacks you they want something from you. Either something material like your money, or something immaterial like your humiliation. Either way they need something and so they attack. Your biggest advantage is that you need nothing from them. In order to win they must take this thing from you, but in order for you to win you just need the fight to stop, you do not need to 'defeat' them.

When someone attacks you they have all the standard advantages. They know how far they are willing to go, you do not, they know what they want, you do not, they can begin first, you cannot. Your one advantage is that you need nothing from them and so there are many ways for you to win, there is only one way for them to win.

Can't win a fight by parrying? I disagree, I have gotten through fights guarding alone. Good footwork, a strong guard and a clear purpose in mind you can defend your way through a fight. You think after you evade their first 3 attacks they are going to keep attacking you indefinitely? Would you keep attacking someone who is in full guard? Its not a ring, time is limited, energy is limited, anger is limited and there are no points. They want an easy win, always, as soon as you make it hard for them a lot of people will rethink. With a patient guard lots of opportunities for counter attack present themselves.

Self defence is real. Also lots of Chinese 'Martial arts' are specifically for self defence, not for war. There are classically 3 categories of Chinese Wushu, Soldier, civilian and spiritual. All are very different.

[Syn7]

As far as I'm concerned, if you engage that is an act of war and you should treat it as such. If somebody attacks you, why mitigate the damage? Hit em hard and fast. Walk away alive, not righteous. People can keep their moral highground crap. I have a code and I live by that code. That code involves letting people be, but when they break the peace, you break them.

[RenDaHai]

As far as I'm concerned, if you engage that is an act of war and you should treat it as such. If somebody attacks you, why mitigate the damage? Hit em hard and fast. Walk away alive, not righteous. People can keep their moral highground crap. I have a code and I live by that code. That code involves letting people be, but when they break the peace, you break them.

It is not even about moral high ground. Its about safety. There are consequences to your actions. You want to risk escalating the fight to a more dangerous level, you want to risk yourself being in trouble for causing damage? Fights happen all the time, and most of the time they are just little punch ups. Of course we need to use judgement to assess how dangerous a situation is, and any violent situation is potentially deadly whether deliberately or accidentally. But if you only have this attitude of 'hit 'em hard and fast' I am confident it will cause more trouble for you than a more cautious approach. I am also confident that when a situation arises you will suddenly question your approach, and that is dangerous. If you go into a fight knowing you are going to be defensive and resolute in your method you will be much stronger than if your mind is saying: 'Hmm should I be aggressive?'.

Trying to be aggressive when you are confused is a mistake and sudden situations are confusing.

[YouKnowWho]

There are consequences to your actions.

This is the beauty of the grappling art. You don't need to punch on your opponent's face to end a fight.

If I attack you, you sweep me down. After you have done that 3 times to me, I don't think I want to attack you any more.

[David Jamieson]

Courage, awareness and sensible choices are the tools of self defense.

Fighting is fighting.

defend yourself does come into play when fighting though.

But what is the important thing to teach people?

Euripides said: "Courage can be taught in the same way a child learns to speak".
This simple statement has a lot to it. If you do not try to speak or you do not attempt to speak, then it is unlikely that you will develop good speaking skills. The same is true with courage. If you don't practice being courageous, then it's unlikely you ever will reveal that in yourself. But it is key to self defense.

[Kellen Bassette]

You see, I am the opposite, I find your point of view very hard to understand.

What I'm talking about isn't the events that lead up to the fight, or the reason for fighting; and I'm not saying you initiate the attack....I'm talking about the training mentality. It is very different for people who claim "self defense" as the focus, compare with people trying to become a "fighter." It may seem like the same thing, but it is not. (Not necessarily referring to just sport fighting, although it is a good example.)

I think to fight you need to accept the reality that you will most likely get hit. If that is unacceptable you should never fight anyone. If getting hit for real, is not in your training, I think you will not be competent at defending yourself. Someone who trains hard and heavy with their partner must become aggressive and develop a fighter's mindset, or quit.

Historically, we know that TCMA was military arts, and we know all elite military must train in a way that prepares their mind for battle. They must become soldiers. I understand that is not our name, but training with what I call a "victim mentality" is counter productive to being competent under extreme pressure.

Iron sharpens iron and you need that to develop mindset to employ martial skill, otherwise you probably won't be able to handle it or make anything work.

[Kellen Bassette]

Courage, awareness and sensible choices are the tools of self defense.

Fighting is fighting.

This is true and you cannot develop courage doing only compliance drills and form work. You can develop courage by fighting and by training under heavy pressure. This training will change your mindset and you will not have a "self defense" mentality.

[MightyB]

Street Fights are usually a group activity:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nTvP0qkVHk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HS4D04_n2CI

I'll have to look for it, but I posted a clip that had real street crime and violence - that was brutal. You really can't prepare for it in a kwoon. It's hard to describe without seeing it, but basically to be prepared for real self defense, you need a weapon and a bunch of armed friends.

[YouKnowWho]

If a 10 years old kid uses a stick to hit you and all you do is to block his attack, soon or later his stick will hit you. So self defense doesn't mean that you will only play defense and never hit back. If you do decide to hit back then why don't you hit back earlier? If you hit back earlier then can you still call it self defense?

When you do "self defense", it's the same as you "help someone to go to heaven". It may only look pretty outside.

[MightyB]

Here's the reality of street violence https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=581992838499289 (log into facebook to watch)

I posted it earlier. Short of carrying a gun, always being aware, and having a gang of like-minded thugs backing you up, there isn't really much you can do to prepare for real self-defense.

Self-defense training in a MA school is still LARPING, it's a myth.