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[Grumblegeezer]

As I'm in my 'all warm and fuzzy' mode regarding the forum, all I will say regarding KK and his EWTO is that as time goes by, he and it moves ever further away from what LT teaches....

My current instructor is actually my si-dai. Back in the 80s we trained together under LT. Si-dai and instructor you ask? Yeah, what can I say. He's just better than me, and yes he does call me si-hing even when he's kicking my arse.

Anyway, he spent a lot of time in the EWTO and is personal friend, student, and admirer of KK. Not so much of LT these days, since he split from his association. So he's been showing me some of KK's newer stuff. It's very interesting, and should not be dismissed out of hand just because it doesn't come from LT. But being a simple soul, I do better when sticking to the basics. If I were more talented, I'd ...er, still stick to the basics. That's just me, I guess.

Now in response to your comment above I'm posting a KK clip. Yes, as Kevin noted, the techniques are strange, mysterious and like monks sending people bouncing away ...almost. You can tell the stuff is mysterious if you turn up the sound track!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6STx6...5FF7C6BCE786AB

[LaRoux]

Do you have evidence of anything?

I've posted several examples of WC people not being able to use their principles, theories and techniques in full contact situations. Many others have also posted many examples of the same.

[LaRoux]

Good post.

How to respond to anti wing chun trolling from the likes of laroux though?

Simple. Post some evidence when you make a claim.

[Grumblegeezer]

I've posted several examples of WC people not being able to use their principles, theories and techniques in full contact situations. Many others have also posted many examples of the same.

Hey LaRoux, are there any WC individuals or groups you do approve of regarding training and applying their stuff effectively against resisting opponents?

[Neil-Y]

Thank you Neil for responding.

A question about this statement:



Can this not be an issue of focused energy. What I mean by that is if you weren’t chasing hands and focused on attacking centre would it matter where the point of contact was?

As far as poon sau, you have also made a switch in thinking. How do you train now for developing the punch? Is it a change in mind set… same drills or completely new drills with new mind set?

Thanks again Neil

Possibly but that's not how I was originally taught. it even started off in Dan Chi sau when your partner did the palm strike we would jut sau the wrist down to navel level. So right from the start we were using the wrist to divert energy away taking our hands from a good position opening up huge gaps.

The problem was that contact at the wrist became habit and chi sau was a platform for techniques too. So that habit manifested itself in sparring. I was search for arms like fracking zombie.

The punch is developed in many ways through poon sau, wall bag, the pole etc....and of course the relationship of the punch through the first form.

Many of the drills I used to do where based on what we called faan sau which translates as returning hand which is basically the continuation of attacks and defenses. But again the problem was it was predicated on long periods of contact with yr partners arms which looked good with a willing partner but if ever things got a bit heated and speeds increased there was less contact so opportunity to feel and control diminished. Some drills are similar but the movement is different. The lap sau drill is more alive,

[BPWT]

So he's been showing me some of KK's newer stuff. It's very interesting, and should not be dismissed out of hand just because it doesn't come from LT.

I suppose for me, the difficulty is two-fold.

1. KK's stuff these days often compromises, IMO, some of the LTWT basics. So in the modern EWTO clips I see elbow position compromised, giving up the centerline, a lack of Yiu Ma Hap Yat, a lack of Dim Dim Ching (outside of the usual form reference), general structural compromises, too much static stance and no footwork in the drills, etc.

2. It is not LTWT, and I am interested in learning LTWT

But if people get something from it, good for them The EWTO still attracts a lot of students, so they must be offering something that many people want.

Yes, as Kevin noted, the techniques are strange, mysterious and like monks sending people bouncing away ...almost. You can tell the stuff is mysterious if you turn up the sound track!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6STx6...5FF7C6BCE786AB

Yes... not my cup of tea.

[LaRoux]

Hey LaRoux, are there any WC individuals or groups you do approve of regarding training and applying their stuff effectively against resisting opponents?

Phil Redmond is probably the only guy who has been able to provide evidence of his WC guys consistently being successful using the stuff they learn in training in full contact environments.

[GlennR]

As there's no official moderating here, why don't we just moderate our own posts?

Rather than say someone's method is wrong, why don't we just agree to explain our take on it, and leave it at that? Whatever we say here, next week all these lineages will still exist.

Answer questions, respond to replies, and keep any negativity regarding it all to ourselves.

For my part, I'll stop verbally bumming Graham , I'll stop making digs about Kevin's clip and his seminar costs, etc, and I'll do my best not to mention 'punching concepts' unless I can do so in a nice way.

Why don't we all agree that tomorrow is Sensible Friday.

Gee, don't do that, graham lives a good bumming

[sihing]

Well I didn't drop straight away. I had alot of responsibility as I have my own club so needed to be **** sure I was doing the right thing. It would have been alot easier if I didn't have students. After all they were paying me money only for me to turn around and say guys what we are doing just won't work.

So over a few months I trained with Graham and saw for myself. Each time I went to see him reinforced my view. My chi sau felt like it was built on sand. Too much trying to control and keep contact. Using the wrists too much leaving my arms in bad positions. Over turning being exploited, Basically that fact the techniques were based on all this 'feeling' the direction of the energy and then based on that redirecting......all in the space of a nanosecond.....just didn't work. The main point was that I was easily being hit far too easily. I was being turned. When I used a technique too much power and over cooked it then exploited.

Very quickly Graham was showing me ways through forms to change my behaviour, elbow position, balance through chum kui, structure and development of punch through poon sau, drills individual to me to iron out specific problems I have.

But I like how the system fits together as an individual improvement strategy. Plus I'm finding things work in sparring. Still along way to go.

Neil

Nice Sharing Neil

Had a similar experience as you in 06' when I travelled to LA and had my first experience in WSLVT. Came from a TWC background and it was a totally different feeling and method as compared to the WSLVT method, they controlled my center mass easily in chi sau and from guys with 2yrs experience, me 18yrs in TWC, so it was that feeling and other experiences that just made me have to switch over.

Coming back (I didn't tell anyone in the club I had what I was doing), it told them what happened, and in the beginning taught both methods and eventually stopped teaching TWC all together. My Sifu and one senior were not impressed, as I related my experience here on KFO, since then pretty well no contact with them, and Happy for the change in systems, lots of great and not so great experiences since then but thankful for it, my VT experience has risen a ton since 06'..

Welcome to the forum by the way

James

[k gledhill]

Phil Redmond is probably the only guy who has been able to provide evidence of his WC guys consistently being successful using the stuff they learn in training in full contact environments.

This shows me you know nothing of ving tsun. And youre a wanker.

[k gledhill]

Ban him
The enemy of my enemy and all that.

Bleed him after quartering. : )

[k gledhill]

Nice Sharing Neil

Had a similar experience as you in 06' when I travelled to LA and had my first experience in WSLVT. Came from a TWC background and it was a totally different feeling and method as compared to the WSLVT method, they controlled my center mass easily in chi sau and from guys with 2yrs experience, me 18yrs in TWC, so it was that feeling and other experiences that just made me have to switch over.

Coming back (I didn't tell anyone in the club I had what I was doing), it told them what happened, and in the beginning taught both methods and eventually stopped teaching TWC all together. My Sifu and one senior were not impressed, as I related my experience here on KFO, since then pretty well no contact with them, and Happy for the change in systems, lots of great and not so great experiences since then but thankful for it, my VT experience has risen a ton since 06'..

Welcome to the forum by the way

James

This shows me you understand ving tsun ; )

Just a btw but a Serbian TWC master and 300 strong group all defected to pb recently. For the same reasons. : )

[sihing]

This shows me you understand ving tsun ; )

Just a btw but a Serbian TWC master and 300 strong group all defected to pb recently. For the same reasons. : )

Thanks Yes, Nenad, I remember his vids from his time with GM Cheung, he was a big promoter, and like me had an experience and went his own way..

Looking back, TWC wasn't a waste of time for me, its just I had very little exposure to other VT systems outside the TWC umbrella as I live in a sort of isolated area, and there isn't much Wing Chun in this area anyways. TWC is more of a longer range VT system, outside elbow/knee range, and is a style more so than a development system. Its a "he does this, you do that" type of learning and such,,it works for some and may be their cup of tea, not mine anymore...I do share some of the things I learned though from TWC, entry tech, elbow/knee watching at long range, some techniques as well, but it's easy to pick that stuff up as compared to learning a good VT foundation of structure, mechanics, aim, power generation, lines of attack/angles and so forth, that is much harder and more valuable IMO To each their own though We all have our own reasons for participating in what we do...

J

[LFJ]

Now in response to your comment above I'm posting a KK clip. Yes, as Kevin noted, the techniques are strange, mysterious and like monks sending people bouncing away ...almost. You can tell the stuff is mysterious if you turn up the sound track!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6STx6...5FF7C6BCE786AB

WTF was that at :49? The Heimlich, or something more mysterious?

[k gledhill]

WTF was that at :49? The Heimlich, or something more mysterious?

Amazing what a potential franchise and pyramid schemes do to people.