kung fu and real warfare

[crazychang]

This might sound ridiculous, but then it might be true, but do you really need to be able to kill people easily if you want to practice martial arts? My old instructor, who was Chinese, used to say that if you can't go off to a remote country, and start shooting people left right and centre when there is a righteous cause (he used Vietnam War as an example) then you are not a warrior, and that you have no ultimate place in chinese martial arts. It aint that easy in my minds eye, to go to Sudan tomorrow and start shooting and stabbing armed assailants like flies even though there is a conflict.

He stated you know within yourself if you can walk up to someone with a sniper rifle and shoot them in the face, and that aint a joke. He said that buddhist monks aren't really like this, but the shaolin monks are which is why they practice kung fu. Funny thing is, I tried getting into the army reserve but was rejected because I was taking some medication (not for depression) but I never really imagined shooting people dead.

So if your a peaceful person should you focus on being more like Kuan yin or the dalai lama and act like a peaceful fool at times and drop martial arts, whereas if you are just but aggressive then focus on cultivating a character like Guan Yu? He said if your not Guan yu your not kung fu.

[crazychang]

The problem with buddhism is the endless compassion for people and their suffering as a mortal human beings, which is good until you meet a freak. I met a depressed (well she didn't suffer from a real form of sever depression as I was told) welfare recipient who refused to work and was so self obsessed and believed her life was so hard (it was so easy in reality) she just refused to do anything but sit in her room and be depressed. I told a buddhist teacher about this and they said you should go out and meet her and lift her up. Guan Yu wouldn't do this, he would kick her in the arse and tell her to get lost.

[Drake]

Why would you walk up to someone and shoot them in the face with a sniper rifle? Pistol or shotgun for that.

You kill people who are trying to kill you. It's that simple. Otherwise, they'll keep coming. Kill them dead.

I don't have an inner struggle when some whacked out TB who rapes little boys takes a potshot at me.

You either fight with brutal intensity, or you are at the mercy of those without mercy. Your choice.

I say kill the **** out of those mother****ers.

[crazychang]

That sounds nice for some, but I've heard of SAS soldiers and even Navy seals killing themselves after war, and that's true. The leader of the Australian Army in Afghanistan wrote a book about the psychiatric distress of war (he ended up spending time in a psychiatric hospital). You wouldn't rise to the top of the Australian army if you were weak.

As for warfare, it aint that easy to crawl around tunnels with a hand gun shooting vc in the face haha. Some can do it, but not all. And the reality with war is you are going to end up massacring people who aren't attacking you (I mean enemy soldiers primarily but civilians will be killed). They are still attacking you by their war, but they will be in an unaggressive posture at times.

Warfare such as Iwojima was totally brutal and would take its toll on some people.

[crazychang]

Some warrior were bull**** such as a certain greek culture of warriors who had pedophiliac relationships with young boys.

[MarathonTmatt]

I understand where you are coming from.. I get it. I heard an old Bagua Zhang Master from the army talking about this- how in China it was not only kill the person who is the target, but their friends, family, anyone who could revenge for this person, to cover your own butt.
I would be inclined to say that these days Kung Fu is enjoying prosperity world-wide. I don't think many of today's contemporary Master's would talk like this, Dr. Yang Jwing Ming, Master Helen Liang, etc. etc.
I would have no problem engaging someone in a street fight if I absolutely had to defend myself. But also training involves developing one's body/ mind, health, challenging yourself to new heights, ability to attack/ defend, daily energy, etc.
For those in the service, I would ask myself "who am I serving?" "what is their agenda?" For instance, to the governments of the world politics and events is one big chess game. CIA sponsors Al-Qaeda. Al-Qaeda= terrorist threat to the U.S. Politicians destroy the constitution= check and mate. The U.S. still drops off opium in Vietnam, etc. I don't want to diss any veterans, there are a number of veterans in my own family. But the world is crazy these days, things aren't always so clear why they are being fought for. Then there is the war on drugs, etc.
The U.S. is still playing Cowboys and Indians in the Middle East. As someone of Native American decent maybe I am sensitive to this. There was a lot of S**t that happened on US soil not too long ago. Some of my ancestors did not survive the Boarding School experience (Indian policy on "kill the Indian & save the Man"- Thomas Jefferson.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vazCB...yer_detailpage

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4gI6...yer_detailpage

[crazychang]

the US has a record for doing undemocratic things, and a lot of people would find a Vietnam/Iraq war difficult. Especially if many of the people you are fighting are so against you. But if genocide is going on, intervention is justifiable. Its just not that easy (for some) to go from peaceful democracy one day, to brutal killing the next, but some can do it.

Were many martial arts masters in the military? I don't know of any but I'm sure there would be some. The martial arts styles of China don't even sound like they even came truly from the battlefield, but from religious centres.

Even some of the kenjutsu schools like katori shinto ryu sound like they don't have a samurai lineage at all, but I could be wrong.

[Drake]

That sounds nice for some, but I've heard of SAS soldiers and even Navy seals killing themselves after war, and that's true. The leader of the Australian Army in Afghanistan wrote a book about the psychiatric distress of war (he ended up spending time in a psychiatric hospital). You wouldn't rise to the top of the Australian army if you were weak.

As for warfare, it aint that easy to crawl around tunnels with a hand gun shooting vc in the face haha. Some can do it, but not all. And the reality with war is you are going to end up massacring people who aren't attacking you (I mean enemy soldiers primarily but civilians will be killed). They are still attacking you by their war, but they will be in an unaggressive posture at times.

Warfare such as Iwojima was totally brutal and would take its toll on some people.

Suicide is rampant in the military. But here's something interesting. Many of those who committed suicide were only on their first enlistment, and many had not deployed overseas. PTSD is also common. It doesn't necessarily matter what it is you saw, but how your mind processed it. Some folks get PTSD from rocket attacks on the FOB, and some are fine going on patrol every day.

One thing I learned is that if you haven't done it yourself, it's pretty **** difficult to understand what it's like. Sure, you can guess and make assumptions, but you are probably wrong. I was wrong on both Iraq and Afghanistan, and didn't truly grasp it until I was there. And that's with constant training and meetings with those already down there. I knew the facts, but I didn't understand them.

[Kellen Bassette]

I understand where you are coming from.. I get it. I heard an old Bagua Zhang Master from the army talking about this- how in China it was not only kill the person who is the target, but their friends, family, anyone who could revenge for this person, to cover your own butt.
I would be inclined to say that these days Kung Fu is enjoying prosperity world-wide. I don't think many of today's contemporary Master's would talk like this, Dr. Yang Jwing Ming, Master Helen Liang, etc. etc.

IMO, the idea that TMA were primarily for self defense is a modern Western ideal. When TMA came to the West, TCMA methods were no longer relevant for warfare; and you can't pitch the art as something to turn kids into hardened killers. Since there was little interest in THE IDEA of training for culture's sake or for performance, in the West, self defense is the most logical way to peddle TMA. (Ironically, most TMA guys train for culture's sake or performance nowadays, anyway. Whether or not they know it.)

In ancient times, empty handed boxing was used to strengthen and harden a man. Fighting and martial training was believed to toughen a man to help prepare him for battle. In more recent times, post Boxer Rebellion, Gong Fu was promoted to strengthen the collective nation, it was believed by many that strenuous exercise would be beneficial to people across a broad spectrum. Stronger people meant a stronger nation. This is consistent with ancient practice, but not consistent with modern practice.

I also see the Shaolin Quan and Chan thing as a huge contradiction. I think any non Buddhist can see this. A lot of Shaolin guys who are into the whole culture, not just the martial aspects, do mental gymnastics to convince themselves that the intent, history and practice of Shaolin Boxing was never at odds with Buddhism. If you look at it objectively it's not hard to see people bending over backwards to justify the marriage of boxing and Buddhism. It's as silly as if Catholics defended the Spanish Inquisition as consistent with the ideals of Christianity. I expect several people will disagree with me on this....

[crazychang]

Most of the martial art styles I have encountered from China seem hardly warfare (I don't know of any) and are hard to decipher combat wise (well at least to me). Some seem counter intuitive and unnatural as far as striking and defence goes. Drunken boxing doesn't seem natural unless their is some explosive whipping motion in it? Even the xinyi punch doesn't seem that natural.

[crazychang]

I should change that because I've seen shaolin that looks effective.

[Kellen Bassette]

I should change that because I've seen shaolin that looks effective.

Effective combat is never apparent by looking at the forms. If you only focus on form you will never train effective combat.

[bawang]

This might sound ridiculous, but then it might be true, but do you really need to be able to kill people easily if you want to practice martial arts?

I don't know. I like black people.

[crazychang]

Does martial arts really train you for self defence, or does it train you for war?
I think it trains you for street combat which is a better way of sounding less victimized.
You train to be able to attack when attacked, but all the full contact training doesn't train everyone to be able to kill easily (which I generally abhor anyway). Warfare often means sneaking up behind people and ending their life. I practice martial arts but I do it for the fun of it, and not to be a real life warrior. Its a good thing these people exist though because you need the police to defend the state, just as so long as they don't turn on the people they are supposed to defend like in Greece where a large percentage of the cops are Golden dawn supporters who are prepared to kick in the heads of civilians.

I have trouble visualizing trench warfare/jungle warfare in my mind as there seems to be a barrier towards killing other individuals.

My instructor sounds a bit like the individuals in bestial warlust and that fascist black metal music scene, where you can strap and snap hundreds idiots a day and have beer at night to toast to the glorious battle victory. the problem is he looks a bit weak.

[David Jamieson]

I think it's just something to do. You can choose any number of activities to train in and try to attain mastery of the material. The truth of the matter is that you aren't training for anything specific until you are training for something specific. Up until then, you are training and you are not actually employing any of the skills for war etc.

Training for street fights? No. It isn't that. Going out and getting into street fights is what makes you used to street fights and that still isn't training and you can still lose and badly on the street.

But a boxer or fighter in venues? S/He is training towards a goal. A prize. A student in a kung fu club with a regular job etc? They are not training to be warriors. they are filling time whilst traveling around the sun and there is nothing wrong with that. It's interesting, it's healthy and you learn about yourself by doing physically demanding things.

"Courage can be taught in the same way language is learned by a child"- Euripides. (It's slow, it's progressive, there will be errors, there will be failures but eventually, you will have confidence in what you are doing)

When it comes to making violence, your two greatest attributes will be your willingness to do so and the courage to do so.