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Thread: Isolation Training

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    No I think we agree and that you may have misunderstood. You quoted what I said about applications and then started talking about Isolation Training. Trevor asked a good question above, because I do mean two different things when using those terms. I agree that TKD style 2 or 3 step sparring routines are a form of "Isolation Training." But they are something that as Wing Chun practitioners we want to avoid. Any pre-choreographed multi-step routine trained over and over to produce a conditioned response is very likely to fail because any given situation that "kicks in" that response is likely to be different from what you have been training.

    As far as "application", those TKD 2 & 3 step sparring routines could also be seen as an application of those particular multiple movements. But again, I would avoid thinking of "application" that way from a Wing Chun perspective and just keep it simple as I noted above.

    I think what some amongst us have objected to is the idea that something like those TKD routines IS the accepted meaning of "applications" and "isolation training". I started this thread in order to (hopefully) make clear that that is NOT what I am talking about, and not necessarily the "real" meaning of those terms.
    Perhaps it is me but based on my understanding and experience of 2 or 3 step sparring, it was never about application though if one goes through a pre-arranged step process, that should be based on the elements present at the time of contact or response. A scenario is can never be meant to be a copycat of anything since it is just a "static response" but its resolution must be dynamic in purpose

    SCENARIO:
    I am driving down the road and all of a sudden a VBIED explodes about 200 yards infront of me. What does me or my team do? The scenario (definition) is static but it is dynamically changing.
    a. where is contact? close, far. distance.
    b. dismount
    c. security group, assault group, driver (can he turn around at this point) what is each person's role.
    d. Do we run the gauntlet? Too few people, too many, ! Is a principal involved?

    Describing the scenario can never be thought of as the scenario itself since it is dynamic aka OODA loop (I am trying to add that we all use elements of it based on knowledge and experience) You can loop up OODA!
    How does one size up abc? What do I do or use in that process

    TKD responses, perhaps on the part of my instructor was, and appeared to be, a standardized response while I was thinking change or surprise! I don't know what I was thinking back then but it appeared to be not what my teachers though I should. I really don't know but now that I am looking back, this is what I write.

  2. #62
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    Let's use the "foot sweep" as example. You may not like to use it on your opponent, but you can't prevent your opponent from using it on you. When your opponent uses it on you, what will be your "response"?

    Do your train your "response" in

    - Chi Shou? May be not.
    - sparring? If your sparring partner doesn't use "foot sweep" on you, you will never have chance to response to it.

    So where will you train it if not in your "partner drills"?
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 10-05-2013 at 04:14 PM.
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  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    Let's use the "foot sweep" as example. You may not like to use it on your opponent, but you can't prevent your opponent from using it on you. When your opponent uses it on you, what will be your "response"?
    good example. had to deal with this earlier this week with a training partner with a background in wrestling (but primarily a kung fu guy as well). At one point his front leg tried to sweep my front leg from behind, I felt it and responded but our legs locked. It's wasn't hard contact so I tried to pressure him forward but he used his energy to pull his front leg (the one locked with my leg) back while kind of "twisting" me. If he wanted to, it would've gotten me **** well.

    Then he gave me a lecture on how my grappling instincts suck, which they really do. But its a good point that we should train all sorts of scenarios, especially the common ones, because sure I could've hit him, but under the rules at the time, I was pretty much responding in the worst way.
    Everybody wants to go to heaven but nobody wants to die...

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    Not until something like this happens.

    http://imageshack.us/a/img841/1861/0i4m.jpg

    Your opponent gets your head. You gets his waist. Who is going to win depends on who has trained this "scenarios" more than the other.
    But even this is not a multi-step choreographed response. Sure, you have to know how to respond well to the initial situation, but after you get out of the headlock, what then? You have to continue to respond dynamically. There are still multiple possibilities. You aren't rehearsing a scenario where you say..."ok, you're going to get the headlock, then I'm going to pull out of it and put you in a rear armlock, then you're going to spin around and throw a haymaker, and them I'm going to......"

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by sihing View Post
    I'd have to say that scenario training won't go to sh!t in a real fight. It won't totally prepare you that is for sure, but it is better than doing forms or just chi sau, and is no different or less effective than sparring, as sparring is not a real encounter as well. So then what to do? How does one prepare for the "real" world??

    All one can do is develop a skill set and apply in training as realistically as one can, or go out and put yourself in dangerous situations, start fights, or hang in places where getting mugged is the norm... I prefer training as realistically as I can.

    J
    I agree James. But I think what you and John have in mind is really more of a version of "Isolation Training" or maybe limited sparring where you "set up" the situation and then train it more freely. Again, like "Isolation Training" and "application", we can all have a little different understanding of the terms. "Scenario" as Isolation Training might mean simply saying something like...."he has you in a headlock, now go!" and then work on various responses without any set moves being scripted. But when I (and I think Trevor) see "scenario" I tend to think of something where everything is pre-determined. Like those multi-move responses they use in Kenpo. Like two man forms training. But I see the other side of "scenario" now as well. Mawali gave a good example of a scenario our troops have to train for regularly. There can't be a scripted multi-step response. You have to take in various factors in an unpredictable situation and respond as needed. But this is still considered a "scenario" in military training. So I guess its all in how we define our terms and set up what we are doing.
    Last edited by KPM; 10-06-2013 at 04:50 AM.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    Let's use the "foot sweep" as example. You may not like to use it on your opponent, but you can't prevent your opponent from using it on you. When your opponent uses it on you, what will be your "response"?

    Do your train your "response" in

    - Chi Shou? May be not.
    - sparring? If your sparring partner doesn't use "foot sweep" on you, you will never have chance to response to it.

    So where will you train it if not in your "partner drills"?
    Good example. I'd break that out and create an "Isolation Training" drill to work on it. But that's not really a scenario in the sense of "here is this complicated situation that you will respond to with this string of movements."

    And just an aside.....you could train this in Chi Gerk....which is a form of Isolation Training for leg work.

  7. #67
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    To be clearer, I think this is the kind of training that most Wing Chun people object to:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxkMFbiMuFA

    Multi-step, complicated, pre-choreographed routines against a specific "scenario". Trevor, would you agree?

  8. #68
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    I Prefer this guy's approach to kenpo, it's very wing chun like
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMxoeJ8cvLY
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Pf_a-QwlNQ
    Last edited by kung fu fighter; 10-06-2013 at 09:47 AM.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    To be clearer, I think this is the kind of training that most Wing Chun people object to:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxkMFbiMuFA

    Multi-step, complicated, pre-choreographed routines against a specific "scenario". Trevor, would you agree?
    And that's what you do if someone tries to shake your hand....
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    This is 100% TCMA principle. It may be used in non-TCMA also. Since I did learn it from TCMA, I have to say it's TCMA principle.
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    We should not use "TCMA is more than combat" as excuse for not "evolving".

    You can have Kung Fu in cooking, it really has nothing to do with fighting!

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kellen Bassette View Post
    And that's what you do if someone tries to shake your hand....
    Try this "Devil's Hand Shake". When I showed this to the street kids in Brazil, they all loved it.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3I4...ature=youtu.be

    For the "head lock" solution,

    http://imageshack.us/a/img841/1861/0i4m.jpg

    I was thinking about something as simple as "eye brow wiping".

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIVPc6z2esk

    What will you do after you have gotten out of that situation depends on your other training.
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 10-06-2013 at 12:47 PM.
    http://johnswang.com

    More opinion -> more argument
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  11. #71
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    Here's another good example of Isolation Training. I picked this up just recently from Keith Mazza. Don't know why I never thought of it myself! Maybe some of you have?

    This one involves doing each of the Wing Chun forms with only one arm at a time. The other arm stays chambered back at your side. This doesn't apply so much to SNT as it does to the rest of the forms. Since the other forms are all two-handed actions, this allows you to "isolate" one hand and really notice what it is doing in order to refine your technique. Do the whole form with just the left hand, then repeat it with just the right hand. Then when you put both sides together again in the "normal" way, your movements should feel a little more refined and precise.

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