Isolation Training

[KPM]

We've been going round and round on this topic on other threads. So I thought I would try to make it clear what I'm talking about to clarify, and also present the topic for those who haven't been following the other threads.

A basic premise in modern sports science is that you need to isolate a physical movement to develop and perfect it. An example is a tennis player that is having trouble with his or her backhand. A good coach will take that player aside, feed them the ball over and over and make them focus on and work on their backhand until it improves. Then the player takes it back into his or her game in a more random fashion. Our colleagues in combat sports do this all the time as well. Boxers work on drills to develop their jab....everything from practicing against a stationary heavy bag, to practicing against a moving partner using a focus mitt, to practicing against a partner actively trying to hit them. I'm sure we can all think of similar examples from BJJ, MMA, and Thai boxing. The idea is to isolate a skill or technique you want to work on in a 1:1 drill format so you can really concentrate on it. Of course the danger of taking this too far is that you can get "motorset." In other words, you have memorized a specific response to a specific attack. Then in application the opponent doesn't do exactly what you expect and you "freeze" momentarily because you don't have a response for it. So you have to mix up the training, start specific and then make it more and more random. And then you have to go back and put it into a "live" situation like sparring or Chi Sau. It is part of progressive development. I'm wondering how many people train their Wing Chun this way? Here are some examples of people that do:

From Duncan Leung’s lineage:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UlBm7PJlWs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qr1cdWIbcpc

From Alan Orr:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjd3abCoiaA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hghI_aLTkvI

From Ernie Barrios:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_euVrjyso54
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZQP3ig3seI

Before anyone gets all excited, keep in mind that these are drills meant to develop specific techniques and attributes. This is not fighting. But this is how fighters train.

[k gledhill]

Pass , starter for 10 please. : )

[KPM]

Pass , starter for 10 please. : )

That's right. You PB guys don't believe in Isolation Drills. Not sure why. Was hoping you'd elaborate. But you didn't even watch the video examples. I know, because your response came much too soon after I made the original post.

[k gledhill]

That's right. You PB guys don't believe in Isolation Drills. Not sure why. Was hoping you'd elaborate. But you didn't even watch the video examples. I know, because your response came much too soon after I made the original post.

I don't need to watch them to understand me ; )

[k gledhill]

Again you're missing the point. You're case is that you can train anything in isolation and hey presto it's vt because it has a tan and a bong in there. And if a guy does a jab we can spend two hours responding with ? Until its memorized then move onto version 4467 , 4468 , etc....
There is another way. : )

[BPWT]

For me, Kevin is correct and... so too is KPM.

If you 'only' train isolation drills, you're screwed if you face something that doesn't relate to the drills you learned (so here I fully agree with Kevin).

But equally, incorporating isolation drills into your training (in addition to Chi Sau, Lap Sau, Lat Sau and Sparring), can help you work on the specifics found in relation to how we make the system's concepts something real (i.e. Physical) - so here I'm on the same page as Keith.

Being fed punches so you can work on, say, Pak Sau is not just isolating the Pak Sau - the specifics you're working on are the Pak motion, intercepting, closing distance, timing, angling, closing lines of attack, etc. You could also use it to maintain focus on elbow position, facing and re-facing, footwork, etc.

If you train punching a heavy bag (I saw a clip of PB training like this), this too is an isolation drill. The cycle seen in the Lap Sau exercise is an isolation drill too - only one where variables are inserted.

[KPM]

Again you're missing the point. You're case is that you can train anything in isolation and hey presto it's vt because it has a tan and a bong in there. And if a guy does a jab we can spend two hours responding with ? Until its memorized then move onto version 4467 , 4468 , etc....
There is another way. : )

If you actually watched the video examples you'd see that that isn't at all what they are doing. But....Whatever Dude!

[Wayfaring]

We've been going round and round on this topic on other threads. So I thought I would try to make it clear what I'm talking about to clarify, and also present the topic for those who haven't been following the other threads.

Sure, man. Everybody isolates a movement or series of movements and trains them. Most people refer to this as "drilling". I haven't heard a lot out there naming this "isolation drills", although that is what "drilling" does. In HFY there is a whole learning track based on a "san sau" format, which is basically training up a fighter through a series of drills. We even distinguish unique names for the first form (either SLT or SNT) based upon whether you are training the system concepts or san sau concepts (training fighting).

On of the keys in "drilling" is to isolate a portion of a fight (free sparring exchange) and train from that a specific pathway. This is quite different from the myriad of "one-step response" videos out there where some unsuspecting fool throws a fake haymaker then gets 8 techniques as a response.

So I don't think it's the concept of "drilling" that's getting argued here, as you would have to be an idiot to never do any drilling at all. It's WHAT you are drilling. Meaning it has to have applicability in a real exchange.

[k gledhill]

Sure, man. Everybody isolates a movement or series of movements and trains them. Most people refer to this as "drilling". I haven't heard a lot out there naming this "isolation drills", although that is what "drilling" does. In HFY there is a whole learning track based on a "san sau" format, which is basically training up a fighter through a series of drills. We even distinguish unique names for the first form (either SLT or SNT) based upon whether you are training the system concepts or san sau concepts (training fighting).

On of the keys in "drilling" is to isolate a portion of a fight (free sparring exchange) and train from that a specific pathway. This is quite different from the myriad of "one-step response" videos out there where some unsuspecting fool throws a fake haymaker then gets 8 techniques as a response.

So I don't think it's the concept of "drilling" that's getting argued here, as you would have to be an idiot to never do any drilling at all. It's WHAT you are drilling. Meaning it has to have applicability in a real exchange.

Yes, our ID encompass our conceptual approach. I can then go and fight anyone using this approach and not be style bound expecting a punch a certain way or everyone throw a jab the same way.
There are varying skill levels in all fighters-humans.

[KPM]

Yes, our ID encompass our conceptual approach. I can then go and fight anyone using this approach and not be style bound expecting a punch a certain way or everyone throw a jab the same way.
There are varying skill levels in all fighters-humans.

That's funny. Because on the other thread you guys were vehemently arguing that you DON'T do isolation drills, or 1:1 techniques, or applications.....which are all essentially the same thing.

[k gledhill]

That's funny. Because on the other thread you guys were vehemently arguing that you DON'T do isolation drills, or 1:1 techniques, or applications.....which are all essentially the same thing.

Look you keep going with that idea and knock yourself out. Happy drilling.

[KPM]

Look you keep going with that idea and knock yourself out. Happy drilling.

Simple fact is that after all the back and forth about what how you guys DON'T do isolation training, now you seem to be saying that you do????

[KPM]

No they are not. Training something in isolation is not what we mean by doing "applications".
I find it interesting that you are unable to even see this distinction let alone understand it... However, I am out too. Sorry Keith.
Myself, Kevin, Graham, guy b, and LFJ (who I thought made valiant and clear attempts to explain) have tried to get you to see this, but its still not getting through.

That's fine. I realize that the PB lineages has a very different definition of "application" from the rest of us. That's why I introduced the term "isolation training" and started trying to talk about that. But even then you all vehemently said "we don't do that!!" Now you seem to be saying you do to some extent. Despite all of my valiant and clear attempts to explain what I meant. Let me point out again how difficult it is to discuss anything productively with you guys.

You see, I suspected that the PB lineage DID do some form of Isolation Training all along. That's why I stopped talking about "applications" and tried to show what I was talking about a bit better. But rather than say..."yeah, if you put it that way we do "X" that is essentially an isolation drill and we use this this way...." No. The response became "its not isolations drills that we are arguing about, but rather what you do in the drilling" as if you all had been agreeing with my idea of Isolation Training all along...which you hadn't! Can't you see how frustrating that is?

But that's neither here nor there. I started this thread for other people to chime in on whether they do Isolation Training or not and if so what kind.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

I think that everything has to start somewhere.
You need to crawl before you can walk and walk before you can run.
Much like any learned activity or skill, one has to start with learning the basics.
When learning to write one will practice block letters and once that is skilled will begin to put them into sentences and such. Once one has a firm understanding of the way a sentence is structured, or the meaning of the words and phrases, then one can write and go off into tangents.

For me, I like the idea of the 7 sections of Chi Sau I learned in WT years ago.
For me each section represented a different type of energy and how to deal with it.
However the goal was never to "memorize" each section but to absorb what each energy manifested and learn to react per the situation. In the end the goal was to "forget" each section and simply react to what was given. Still one needed to start somewhere.

I have had the privilege of doing various lineages of Wing Chun and I have to say that none of them taught a 1:1 application. Often during demos we would have someone punch at us and respond with several different methods because what the thrower provided was somehow different in each instance.

I recall meeting some from this forum who trained with Sifu Allan Lee who described their approach as "covering". It did not matter what the opponent threw as they simply "covered" that area. I gladly will defer to anyone from that school who can explain it better as I may be off base a bit.

The whole idea goes back to the "Gate theory" which teaches us to cover certain areas of the body with a corresponding hand. Where each hand may respond with various techniques based on what is presented. No set pattern or specific technique is ever taught, ime.

For those who say that responding to the opponents energy is BS; I would postulate that you fail to understand. After all didn't Yip Man himself say that the "opponent tells you how to defeat him"? If not with the energy presented then how?

Now I am not talking about some mystical power but on an understanding of angles and power generation along with body structure. Also if one does not move forward with commitment then some things will not work.

[KPM]

Sure, man. Everybody isolates a movement or series of movements and trains them. Most people refer to this as "drilling".

Well, maybe not everybody.

I haven't heard a lot out there naming this "isolation drilling", although that is what "drilling" does.

Yeah, I made up the term "isolation trianing" myself to try to make it clearer what I was talking about on the other thread.

In HFY there is a whole learning track based on a "san sau" format, which is basically training up a fighter through a series of drills.

Cool! I'm assuming these are progressive drills that take one through an increasingly realistic application of the technique, concept or attribute?


On of the keys in "drilling" is to isolate a portion of a fight (free sparring exchange) and train from that a specific pathway. This is quite different from the myriad of "one-step response" videos out there where some unsuspecting fool throws a fake haymaker then gets 8 techniques as a response.

Yes, I agree. Any isolation training needs to keep realistic application in mind. I think the videos I posted mostly support that idea.