Isolation Training

[KPM]

Sure, man. Everybody isolates a movement or series of movements and trains them. Most people refer to this as "drilling".

Well, maybe not everybody.

I haven't heard a lot out there naming this "isolation drilling", although that is what "drilling" does.

Yeah, I made up the term "isolation trianing" myself to try to make it clearer what I was talking about on the other thread.

In HFY there is a whole learning track based on a "san sau" format, which is basically training up a fighter through a series of drills.

Cool! I'm assuming these are progressive drills that take one through an increasingly realistic application of the technique, concept or attribute?


On of the keys in "drilling" is to isolate a portion of a fight (free sparring exchange) and train from that a specific pathway. This is quite different from the myriad of "one-step response" videos out there where some unsuspecting fool throws a fake haymaker then gets 8 techniques as a response.

Yes, I agree. Any isolation training needs to keep realistic application in mind. I think the videos I posted mostly support that idea.

[k gledhill]

That's funny. Because on the other thread you guys were vehemently arguing that you DON'T do isolation drills, or 1:1 techniques, or applications.....which are all essentially the same thing.

Look you keep going with that idea and knock yourself out. Happy drilling.

[KPM]

Whereas, for the VT practitioner a conditioned response can lead to miscalculations and injury, as can just thinking about applying certain techniques for certain situations without having conditioned them. There is simply no time to be thinking about what you want to or should apply.

If you have to think, it's too late. If you plan ahead, things likely won't work out the way you envision. If you condition a response, you may miscalculate or be caught with a feint. That's the main problem with the approach of trying to apply 'Wing Chun techniques'. On the other hand, these risks are not present with a conceptual, instinctive approach.

Wow. You really don't get it, do you? I addressed that very issue in my original post. Boxers don't have problems with that. MMA fighters don't have problems with that. Why should Wing Chun fighters have problems with that?

This is less the case within other martial arts you mention because they are using techniques designed to do what they do, and they do it well.

So you don't use Wing Chun techniques the way they are designed to be used?

Boxers and Muay Thai fighters do what they do well, and that's fine. VT just has a different approach to fighting. Those who don't know any better look at it incorrectly and use training methods from other arts that don't mix

Seems the Wing Chun guys in the vids I posted have a similar approach to fighting as Boxers and Muay Thai fighters....at least as far as some of their training methods. And it seems that they are mixing these "training methods from other arts" into their routine quite well! Are you saying that Duncan Leung, Alan Orr, and Ernie Barrios "don't know any better" and "look at it incorrectly"????

[KPM]

Look you keep going with that idea and knock yourself out. Happy drilling.

Simple fact is that after all the back and forth about what how you guys DON'T do isolation training, now you seem to be saying that you do????

[k gledhill]

Simple fact is that after all the back and forth about what how you guys DON'T do isolation training, now you seem to be saying that you do????

Elvis has left the building .

[sihing]

The "isolation" drills, like the pad work, is just another way of drilling the fundamentals, in a freer environment.

Chi sau, develops frame, personal alignment, aim, dynamic sitting, two live sides, basic power development, sensitivity. Laap sau, develops entry lines, side/back&forth movement, adjusting lines to entry attacks (challenging gates), bong/wu hitting, etc...another step closer to free sparring. Pads bring about a further development of timing, hitting a moving target, non contacted reaction to movement, checking positions, some conditioning too, etc..

Not necessarily vs specific techniques, but I do brings forth certain ideas of cutting in on someone's attack, utilizing our forward wedging triangle to dominate that center area while coming in or when retreating.

To really utilize the skill set above, the person may choose to take it all out for a test drive vs other ppl/styles/systems just to get a sense of different timings, distance control and one's ability to read different opponents, whenever some weakness comes up, whatever it is we work it in the VT drills, unless it has something to do with non contacted reaction to something happening, like the opponent is just being too fast in their striking or takedowns..

IMO and experience

J

[KPM]

Good post James! Perfect time to show us some of your video footage of the pad drilling that you do....hint, hint.

[KPM]

No they are not. Training something in isolation is not what we mean by doing "applications".
I find it interesting that you are unable to even see this distinction let alone understand it... However, I am out too. Sorry Keith.
Myself, Kevin, Graham, guy b, and LFJ (who I thought made valiant and clear attempts to explain) have tried to get you to see this, but its still not getting through.

That's fine. I realize that the PB lineages has a very different definition of "application" from the rest of us. That's why I introduced the term "isolation training" and started trying to talk about that. But even then you all vehemently said "we don't do that!!" Now you seem to be saying you do to some extent. Despite all of my valiant and clear attempts to explain what I meant. Let me point out again how difficult it is to discuss anything productively with you guys.

You see, I suspected that the PB lineage DID do some form of Isolation Training all along. That's why I stopped talking about "applications" and tried to show what I was talking about a bit better. But rather than say..."yeah, if you put it that way we do "X" that is essentially an isolation drill and we use this this way...." No. The response became "its not isolations drills that we are arguing about, but rather what you do in the drilling" as if you all had been agreeing with my idea of Isolation Training all along...which you hadn't! Can't you see how frustrating that is?

But that's neither here nor there. I started this thread for other people to chime in on whether they do Isolation Training or not and if so what kind.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

I think that everything has to start somewhere.
You need to crawl before you can walk and walk before you can run.
Much like any learned activity or skill, one has to start with learning the basics.
When learning to write one will practice block letters and once that is skilled will begin to put them into sentences and such. Once one has a firm understanding of the way a sentence is structured, or the meaning of the words and phrases, then one can write and go off into tangents.

For me, I like the idea of the 7 sections of Chi Sau I learned in WT years ago.
For me each section represented a different type of energy and how to deal with it.
However the goal was never to "memorize" each section but to absorb what each energy manifested and learn to react per the situation. In the end the goal was to "forget" each section and simply react to what was given. Still one needed to start somewhere.

I have had the privilege of doing various lineages of Wing Chun and I have to say that none of them taught a 1:1 application. Often during demos we would have someone punch at us and respond with several different methods because what the thrower provided was somehow different in each instance.

I recall meeting some from this forum who trained with Sifu Allan Lee who described their approach as "covering". It did not matter what the opponent threw as they simply "covered" that area. I gladly will defer to anyone from that school who can explain it better as I may be off base a bit.

The whole idea goes back to the "Gate theory" which teaches us to cover certain areas of the body with a corresponding hand. Where each hand may respond with various techniques based on what is presented. No set pattern or specific technique is ever taught, ime.

For those who say that responding to the opponents energy is BS; I would postulate that you fail to understand. After all didn't Yip Man himself say that the "opponent tells you how to defeat him"? If not with the energy presented then how?

Now I am not talking about some mystical power but on an understanding of angles and power generation along with body structure. Also if one does not move forward with commitment then some things will not work.

[guy b.]

The "isolation" drills, like the pad work, is just another way of drilling the fundamentals, in a freer environment.

Chi sau, develops frame, personal alignment, aim, dynamic sitting, two live sides, basic power development, sensitivity. Laap sau, develops entry lines, side/back&forth movement, adjusting lines to entry attacks (challenging gates), bong/wu hitting, etc...another step closer to free sparring. Pads bring about a further development of timing, hitting a moving target, non contacted reaction to movement, checking positions, some conditioning too, etc..

Not necessarily vs specific techniques, but I do brings forth certain ideas of cutting in on someone's attack, utilizing our forward wedging triangle to dominate that center area while coming in or when retreating.

To really utilize the skill set above, the person may choose to take it all out for a test drive vs other ppl/styles/systems just to get a sense of different timings, distance control and one's ability to read different opponents, whenever some weakness comes up, whatever it is we work it in the VT drills, unless it has something to do with non contacted reaction to something happening, like the opponent is just being too fast in their striking or takedowns..

IMO and experience

J

Really nice post

[KPM]

Hi Dave!


For me, I like the idea of the 7 sections of Chi Sau I learned in WT years ago.
For me each section represented a different type of energy and how to deal with it.
However the goal was never to "memorize" each section but to absorb what each energy manifested and learn to react per the situation. In the end the goal was to "forget" each section and simply react to what was given. Still one needed to start somewhere.

Yes. That sounds like what I have been describing as a form of Isolation Training. The idea is not to "motorset" a conditioned response. The idea is to isolate a particular thing to work on it and improve some aspect of it. Then you go on.

I have had the privilege of doing various lineages of Wing Chun and I have to say that none of them taught a 1:1 application. Often during demos we would have someone punch at us and respond with several different methods because what the thrower provided was somehow different in each instance.

I agree. When talking about a 1:1 application I have never meant that as learning that when a opponent does X, you always do Taan Sau, etc. You might do any number of responses to X. But each of those responses will be a 1:1 response....meaning a given response to a given attack. Not to sound too abstract.... but I mean a 1:1 correspondence in time and space...not a preset 1:1 always this technique for that attack type conditioning.

I recall meeting some from this forum who trained with Sifu Allan Lee who described their approach as "covering". It did not matter what the opponent threw as they simply "covered" that area. I gladly will defer to anyone from that school who can explain it better as I may be off base a bit.

I'm not from that school, but I have seen what they do. This is taught in both the Duncan Leung and Lo Man Kam lineages. The idea is that if you are thinking a step ahead of the opponent and are in control of the exchange, then you can predict what his next response will likely be and so you "close that gate" or "cover" before he can even launch his attack. So you seem almost psychic in the sense that you are always closing off his line of attack a split second before he even launches it. You see some of this in the footage from DL's lineage that I posted. So in terms of isolation training...this means you can have your partner throw random attacks to different gates and practice your timing and positioning for covering those gates.

The whole idea goes back to the "Gate theory" which teaches us to cover certain areas of the body with a corresponding hand. Where each hand may respond with various techniques based on what is presented. No set pattern or specific technique is ever taught, ime.

I will point out that in the DL and LMK lineages they use Kwan Sau as a generic "cover" a lot. Whether that's good or bad I can't say, but it seems to work for them.

For those who say that responding to the opponents energy is BS; I would postulate that you fail to understand. After all didn't Yip Man himself say that the "opponent tells you how to defeat him"? If not with the energy presented then how?

Be careful! Don't open the whole "responding to pressure on the forearm" can of worms again!

[Sihing73]

Hi Dave!

I'm not from that school, but I have seen what they do. This is taught in both the Duncan Leung and Lo Man Kam lineages. The idea is that if you are thinking a step ahead of the opponent and are in control of the exchange, then you can predict what his next response will likely be and so you "close that gate" or "cover" before he can even launch his attack. So you seem almost psychic in the sense that you are always closing off his line of attack a split second before he even launches it. You see some of this in the footage from DL's lineage that I posted. So in terms of isolation training...this means you can have your partner throw random attacks to different gates and practice your timing and positioning for covering those gates.

Hi Keith,

Not to disagree with you but to me the goal is to not think during an exchange. I simply try to react and continue going forward. This is hard to explain but the closest would be the state of mushin. It is not not thinking per se but a state of heightened awareness. If that makes any sense.

I do not try to think ahead of my opponent but I try to be aware and react as things are presented to me. I am really probably not explaining this with the justice it deserves. A good reference for me has been Living the Martial Way which is a great book, imho, and explains things far better than I can.

To give an example;
Several years ago I was walking down an alley. Someone jumped out of the shadows and swung a 2x4 at me. I dropped the person without it fully registering what was happening. To be honest I do not remember or know how I dropped the person it just happened. Maybe I got lucky or maybe some of the training carried over to protect me. I like to think the latter but again, I could be wrong.

I have had similar things happen while working as a Police Officer so I will opt to think it was the training. Then again, perhaps I had trained for that "specific" scenario and used a 1:1 technique so maybe it won't count.

[KPM]

Not to disagree with you but to me the goal is to not think during an exchange. I simply try to react and continue going forward. This is hard to explain but the closest would be the state of mushin. It is not not thinking per se but a state of heightened awareness. If that makes any sense.

Sure. Perhaps "thinking" was the wrong word to use. But you can set the opponent up such that you have limited his options so his response is more predictable. And you can intuitively know where your opening is and where he is likely to strike so you naturally "cover" that opening. Not so much a rational thinking, as much as the "mushin" type response you noted. But bottomline is that in those lineages that use this approach, they seem to do a fair amount of Isolation Training to help develop it.

[Sihing73]

Sure. Perhaps "thinking" was the wrong word to use. But you can set the opponent up such that you have limited his options so his response is more predictable. And you can intuitively know where your opening is and where he is likely to strike so you naturally "cover" that opening. Not so much a rational thinking, as much as the "mushin" type response you noted. But bottomline is that in those lineages that use this approach, they seem to do a fair amount of Isolation Training to help develop it.

One of the things I teach is to move in a way where the opponent is within your power zone but you are outside of theirs. This requires them to move in order to be able to hit you but you are able to strike them without moving.

I think that anyone would need fo accept the need to start with basics and build from there. Take any endeavor. Driving a car for example. One uses the basics to learn and practice but with experience one can deal with even unexpected circumstances on the road.

[KPM]

Here is an example of some Isolation Training from Robert Chu:

To help students train the Pak Da, have a partner throwing them straight punches (and they don't have to be WCK punches). Use the Pak hand against the wrist, the bridge (forearm), below the elbow, at the elbow, above the elbow, between the biceps and triceps, at the shoulder, at the chest and at the face. Your footwork will be the simple Bik Ma (Pressing Step) of WCK. This will give you a series of nine different Pak Sao. The angle of your Pak Sao and where your hands start from, will yield different variations. When both partners have done 10 repetitions of each on the desired target and on both sides, move on to the next exercise.

The next exercise is basically the same using Lop Da. With your partner straight punching at you, use your Lop Da hand against the wrist, the bridge, below the elbow, at the elbow, above the elbow, between the biceps and triceps, at the shoulder, at the neck and at the face or ear. You will use Bik Ma footwork. Again, make sure both partners try each variation 10 times on both sides before moving on to the next variation.

To clarify a bit, in CSLWCK the basic idea is to disrupt the opponent's balance so you can control them and strike them at will. The Pak is seen as "pushing the door open"....it should collapse the opponent's structure in upon them and turn them. The Lop is seen as "pulling the door open"...it should yank the opponent forward and turn them. So what Robert is describing above is a developmental exercise for learning to use the Pak and Lop in this way from various contact points on the opponent and using good body structure and "jing". This would be harder to develop in Chi Sao training alone.