Isolation Training

[KPM]

What's the difference between those terms?

When I refer to "applications", I do not mean preset choreographed multiple move responses to specific attacks. I DON"T have in mind some Tae Kwon Do 3 step sparring routine. To me, "applications" refers to the 1:1 correspondence in time and space of one technique to another. For example....using a Bong Sao as a defense against a straight punch. That is not to say that every time the opponent does a straight punch I intend to do a Bong Sao. That only means that one way to use a Bong Sao is as a defense against a straight punch. That is just one application of the Bong Sao. So, likewise, when I talk about applications from the forms, I don't mean take a sequence out of the form and expecting to use it directly. What I do mean, for example, is that there is a pivoting Bong Sao in the form, and the pivot with the Bong Sao can be used as a defense against a punch. So that is an application of that movement. The forms certainly contain concepts, but those concepts must be expressed with physical technique. When you "apply" that technique for a specific situation following the concept behind it, then THAT is an "application" of the technique. So to me, it seems silly to say "we don't do applications." Any specific use of a technique, regardless of how random it is, is an "application." I "apply" my Taan Sao or Bong Sao or Pak Sao in a specific circumstance. Even if I am thinking in terms of a general "zone defense", when I use a specific technique that is an "application" of that technique.....regardless of what attack I have "applied" it to.

As I pointed out in my very first post, I see Isolation Training as breaking out a specific technique, attribute, or yes...application, and working on it in a drill-like format so that you can develop it further. I've given multiple examples of that to try and show what I mean. Hopefully its clear by now what I have been talking about.

[YouKnowWho]

Do you guys consider a "groin kick followed by a face punch" as "isolation training"?

[Ozzy Dave]

Anything done as a drill could be said to be “isolation training” but the problem with classification schemes is a semantic one – everyone has to agree on the definitions.

I did like the clip from Jin Young and would say this type of thing needs to be developed further as boxing is the perfect whetstone to initially hone your skill with IMO.

Dave

[KPM]

Do you guys consider a "groin kick followed by a face punch" as "isolation training"?

I would if you isolated that technique, had a partner throw various attacks in which it may be appropriate to use that technique, and worked on the timing and angling that you need to actually make it work. But note, I did not say pick ONE and only ONE attack and try to develop a memorized conditioned response of "groin kick followed by face punch" for that specific attack. What we want to do is break something out or "isolate" it so we can develop it further. Its not about trying to condition a specific response to a specific attack.

Once you have worked that a bit in an "Isolation Training" format or drill, then you have to take it back into Chi Sao or sparring to see if you can use it "on the fly" so to speak. You have to "bring it to life."

[KPM]

This is from dictionary.com:

ap·pli·ca·tion/ˌæplɪˈkeɪʃən/ Show Spelled [ap-li-key-shuhn]

1. the act of putting to a special use or purpose: the application of common sense to a problem.
2. the special use or purpose to which something is put: a technology having numerous applications never thought of by its inventors.
3. the quality of being usable for a particular purpose or in a special way; relevance: This has no application to the case.
4. the act of requesting.
5. a written or spoken request or appeal for employment, admission, help, funds, etc.: to file an application for admission to a university.
6. a form to be filled out by an applicant, as for a job or a driver's license.
7. close attention; persistent effort: Application to one's studies is necessary.
8. an act or instance of spreading on, rubbing in, or bringing into contact: the application of a compress to a wound; a second application of varnish.
9. a salve, ointment, or the like, applied as a soothing or healing agent.
10. Computers.
a. a type of job or problem that lends itself to processing or solution by computer: Inventory control is a common business application.
b. Also called application software, application program. a computer program used for a particular type of job or problem: Your new computer comes preloaded with applications.

I think #2 & 3, and maybe even #8 "applies" here.

[YouKnowWho]

had a partner throw various attacks ...

You can train a lot of "isolation training" drills by attacking your opponent first.

A

- fast footwork,
- enter from the right angle,
- good set up
- ...

will be nice to be developed from "isolation training".

[YouKnowWho]

Its not about trying to condition a specific response to a specific attack.

To respond to an attack is easy. There is a general key that can open all locks. A simple foot sweep on your opponent's leading leg (to knock your opponent's leading foot off the ground), or just a simple toe push kick on your opponent's belly (let your opponent to run into your kick) will stop your opponent's attack most of the time.

If your opponent can't put weight on his leading leg, he can't punch you. The leg is always longer than the arm. If your foot can hit on your opponent's belly before his fist can hit on your face, your offense will be your best defense.

[Grumblegeezer]

To respond to an attack is easy. There is a general key that can open all locks. A simple foot sweep on your opponent's leading leg (to knock your opponent's leading foot off the ground), or just a simple toe push kick on your opponent's belly (let your opponent to run into your kick) will stop your opponent's attack most of the time.

--OK, that makes sense.

If your opponent can't put weight on his leading leg, he can't punch you.

--but this is not so true. The WT guys for example, keep their weight on the rear leg just so they can punch or kick when someone is trying to sweep their front leg.

Perhaps it would be better to say, "If your opponent's balance is jacked-up, he can't punch you with any power."

[YouKnowWho]

Perhaps it would be better to say, "If your opponent's balance is jacked-up, he can't punch you with any power."

That's correct if you move in and attack your opponent. Your opponent can still punch you with weight on his back foot.

I was talking about your opponent attacks you. He will need to step in to cover the distance first.

[mawali]

When I refer to "applications", I do not mean preset choreographed multiple move responses to specific attacks. I DON"T have in mind some Tae Kwon Do 3 step sparring routine. To me, "applications" refers to the 1:1 correspondence in time and space of one technique to another.

My view is just the opposite! 2 or 3 step sparring does involve 'isolation training providing one is training the possible scenarios. I started out in TKD and based on the training I thought I understood, 2 or 3 step sparring is" isolation training" and that is the main reason I left! Too much one sided emphasis on kicking.
I was ****ed off that I was often castigated for slapping my opponent or stepping on his toes then pushing him just because I did not kick! If someone attacks high, then I may go low, then hit, or push, then pull then spin and throw.

Pick a scenario then execute as I 2 or 1 and 2 or 12 and 3 or 1 and 2 and 3.
ANother scenario may be feint left, go right, trap his leg with your leg then hit or throw based on your strong points.

I did realize that TKD guys generally are simplistic but a strong kicker does have the force to knock one down or out and many are excellent kickers. Perhaps I sucked at kicking hence my alternative strategies but most of the guys I used to train with cannot even lift their leg!

[anerlich]

Jin has had some input from a pb source recently too. ; )

As has everyone who reads this forum. Film at 11.

[KPM]

My view is just the opposite! 2 or 3 step sparring does involve 'isolation training providing one is training the possible scenarios. I started out in TKD and based on the training I thought I understood, 2 or 3 step sparring is" isolation training" and that is the main reason I left! Too much one sided emphasis on kicking.

No I think we agree and that you may have misunderstood. You quoted what I said about applications and then started talking about Isolation Training. Trevor asked a good question above, because I do mean two different things when using those terms. I agree that TKD style 2 or 3 step sparring routines are a form of "Isolation Training." But they are something that as Wing Chun practitioners we want to avoid. Any pre-choreographed multi-step routine trained over and over to produce a conditioned response is very likely to fail because any given situation that "kicks in" that response is likely to be different from what you have been training.

As far as "application", those TKD 2 & 3 step sparring routines could also be seen as an application of those particular multiple movements. But again, I would avoid thinking of "application" that way from a Wing Chun perspective and just keep it simple as I noted above.

I think what some amongst us have objected to is the idea that something like those TKD routines IS the accepted meaning of "applications" and "isolation training". I started this thread in order to (hopefully) make clear that that is NOT what I am talking about, and not necessarily the "real" meaning of those terms.

[KPM]

Does this mean me and Keith are starting to agree

---We probably agree on more things than not, when you get right down to it.


This is a problem.... Real fights don't conform to "scenarios".

---Agreed!

[YouKnowWho]

Real fights don't conform to "scenarios".

Not until something like this happens.

http://imageshack.us/a/img841/1861/0i4m.jpg

Your opponent gets your head. You gets his waist. Who is going to win depends on who has trained this "scenarios" more than the other.

[sihing]

I'd have to say that scenario training won't go to sh!t in a real fight. It won't totally prepare you that is for sure, but it is better than doing forms or just chi sau, and is no different or less effective than sparring, as sparring is not a real encounter as well. So then what to do? How does one prepare for the "real" world??

All one can do is develop a skill set and apply in training as realistically as one can, or go out and put yourself in dangerous situations, start fights, or hang in places where getting mugged is the norm... I prefer training as realistically as I can.

J