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Thread: Shape or Action?

  1. #1
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    Shape or Action?

    I thought I'd throw this one out for some discussion as well. Things like this come up within other threads and people not following those thread never get to see them. So I thought I'd start a new one.

    When we talk about a Bong Sao or Taan Sao or any other Wing Chun hand form/technique, what are we really talking about? Is it a shape/form? Or is it an action/movement?

    I say it is both! We get caught up in the idea that it is a shape...a thing. That's because it is most convenient to talk about it in this way. We see pictures with things labeled as a "Bong" or a "Taan" and think that this is it! But really that is only an ending position. As beginners we were told to do a "Bong" or a "Taan" and then our positioning was corrected to make it right. We were taught how to do these things "right" in the forms. All of this reinforces in our mind that the Bong or Taan are static positions. But really, what we are thinking about is only the end point of a dynamic motion. Its more than a position, though positioning is still important.

    So it is also an action. Probably more importantly an action! A "Bong" or "Taan" or any other named technique is a movement, not a static position. That movement is in reference to what the opponent is sending at us, so our Bong or Taan must adapt to that. They are not static "blocks" that we throw up in the air to guard ourselves with. They are dynamic motions that intercept and redirect an opponent's energy. So the real "essence" of a Bong, Taan or any other technique is the energy behind the movement, not the resulting static position. We sometimes forget that.

    But position is important! After all, a movement or action is simply many moments in time strung together concurrently. At each moment, there is a position. So we can talk about there being a "wrong" or "right" position. We do that all the time when teaching the techniques. There is a "wrong" and "right" position to end up in when doing all of the techniques in the forms. During a dynamic exchange a student may be getting hit frequently because he is not positioning his Bong Sao high enough to deflect properly. The action can be stopped, the student's Bong Sao positioned correctly so he gets the right idea, and the action commenced.

    So it truly is both. Therefore IMHO, it is just as wrong to say that "Bong Sao is not a position" as it is to say "Bong Sao is a technique that has to look exactly like this..." Bong Sao is a dynamic action that at any moment in time has a position that may be optimal....or not. The same applies to all techniques in WCK.

  2. #2
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    You are correct. Bong and Taan are Crane wingform weapons, not static form. That is why SLT taan is moving forward Yang speed and not static. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4O6WoWuJ4U
    Last edited by PalmStriker; 09-29-2013 at 12:27 PM.

  3. #3
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    To me,

    - Tan Shou is "sawing",
    - Fu Shou is "pulling",
    - Bong Shou is "bouncing".
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 09-29-2013 at 12:34 PM.
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    For me, Taan and Bong are about deflecting, but that is just my limited preference.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PalmStriker View Post
    For me, Taan and Bong are about deflecting, but that is just my limited preference.
    All 3 hand moves can be use for deflecting. By adding your force vector, you can change your opponent's force vector depending on your "angle" and "amount of force".

    I like to call Tan Shou as a "sawing" motion. That was exactly my opponent had used it on me and got me interested in the WC system.
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 09-29-2013 at 12:49 PM.
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    Snake Engine Chi Sao base. I think practitioners who first train in TCMA Wingchun will adopt that usage, propensity to use form technique as intended. *quote: All 3 hand moves can be use for deflecting. By adding your force vector, you can change your opponent's force vector depending on your "angle" and "amount of force". Instead of simply deflecting, great strategy, would have to be very quick to make use of this mindset.
    Last edited by PalmStriker; 09-29-2013 at 01:06 PM.

  7. #7
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    Shape or Action?

    I don't like the term "shape" because it does not describe the "moving path". The "horse stance" is a "shape". The "hip throw" is an "action".

    If you know how to

    - do "hip throw", you will know how to stand in "horse stance".
    - stand in "horse stance", it doesn't mean that you know how to do "hip throw".

    Why do you want to train "horse stance" if you know how to train "hip throw"? Will you get better result by doing 200 hip throws than 10 minutes horse stance.
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 09-29-2013 at 01:17 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by T_Ray View Post
    I was taught years ago the Wing Chun maxim "Bong sao must not remain" or "bong is never fixed or still".

    So. Why not tan is never still? Or fook must not remain?
    Bong has risk such as "wrong Bong", you use right Bong to meet with your opponent's right punch. Even if you may move in lighting speed, if your opponent can predict your intention ahead of the time, he can take advantage on it. A "remain" and "still" Bong can be much worse.

    Even your "right Bong" may still have risk. If you use your right Bong to block your opponent's left straight punch. His left elbow can still drop under your right Bong (by using the right arm to lift up your right Bong even higher) if you don't try to seal that gap quickly.

    Your Tan and Fu don't have the same issue as your Bong has because your elbow is down. There is no "wrong Tan" and there is no "wrong Fu".
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 09-29-2013 at 02:38 PM.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by T_Ray View Post
    I was taught years ago the Wing Chun maxim "Bong sao must not remain" or "bong is never fixed or still".

    So. Why not tan is never still? Or fook must not remain?
    Because Bong Sao places you momentarily in a vulnerable position with your elbow up. So you should only spend as much time there as necessary to get the job done. Don't let it remain or the opponent will take advantage of your vulnerability. Also Bong Sao is purely defensive in nature whereas the other techniques also have an offensive quality. Taan and Fook both convert easily into a punch. But all of this still does not mean that the Bong has no position. Only that the position should be very brief!

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    You use them as hand shapes that convert into punches?
    Of course. But that's not the only way I use them.

  11. #11
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    In the beginning one can say they are learning "shapes", just to get the references in regards to where the "tan" should be in relation to their bodies, height/width/length, etc.. its not only about the end of the shape but the getting there too. With tan, one is also learning how to let the elbow lead the movement, and to bring it close as possible to centerline (elbows in habits..). Same goes for the rest of the "shapes".

    Then one makes it into actions, primarily concerning tan-spreading strike when contact is outside forearm, fok-cutting strike when contact inside forearm, bong-upper arm deflection to permit secondary hitting action, and so forth...

    One is a learners way of looking at it, once that stage is done, they become doers, from noun to verb...

    J

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by sihing View Post
    In the beginning one can say they are learning "shapes", just to get the references in regards to where the "tan" should be in relation to their bodies, height/width/length, etc.. its not only about the end of the shape but the getting there too. With tan, one is also learning how to let the elbow lead the movement, and to bring it close as possible to centerline (elbows in habits..). Same goes for the rest of the "shapes".

    Then one makes it into actions, primarily concerning tan-spreading strike when contact is outside forearm, fok-cutting strike when contact inside forearm, bong-upper arm deflection to permit secondary hitting action, and so forth...

    One is a learners way of looking at it, once that stage is done, they become doers, from noun to verb...

    J
    Good post James. Sounds like we're on the same sheet of music.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by sihing View Post

    Then one makes it into actions, primarily concerning tan-spreading strike when contact is outside forearm, fok-cutting strike when contact inside forearm, bong-upper arm deflection to permit secondary hitting action, and so forth...
    We must stress that contact is only made should there be an obstacle and we don't look to go to the arm to make some sort of bridge like most people think. If there are no limbs blocking the path of the punch we still strike in the same way regardless.
    "Ving Tsun is a horse not everybody can ride"

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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Graham H View Post
    ...and "Bong Sau" means wing arm block.
    "膀"

    Nothing to do with 'wings'.


    Edit: For that matter... Tan, Bong, Fook.... nothing to do with 'blocking' either
    Last edited by BPWT; 09-30-2013 at 05:13 AM.
    No mocking, tongue-in-cheek signature here... move on.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by BPWT View Post
    "膀"

    Nothing to do with 'wings'.


    Edit: For that matter... Tan, Bong, Fook.... nothing to do with 'blocking' either
    I agree for a change
    "Ving Tsun is a horse not everybody can ride"

    Wong Shun Leung.

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