Is Bong Sao a Mistake?

[KPM]

T Ray wrote on another thread:
Tan sao develops the elbow for the VT punch
Fook sao develops the elbow for the VT punch.

Bong sao is ............................a mistake

Hey T Ray!

I'm still curious about this one! It sounds like a good topic for a discussion. Please elaborate!



General note:
Civil discourse is welcome. Please no taunting, insulting, disrespectful posts from anyone. Thanks!

[YouKnowWho]

This issue has been addressed many times in the past. To assume that you can always "seal that leak" fast enough may not be realistic.

Bong has risk such as "wrong Bong", you use right Bong to meet with your opponent's right punch. Even if you may move in lighting speed, if your opponent can predict your intention ahead of the time, he can take advantage on it.

Even your "right Bong" may still have risk. If you use your right Bong to block your opponent's left straight punch. His left elbow can still drop under your right Bong (by using his right arm to lift up your right Bong elbow even higher) if you don't seal that gap quickly.

[KPM]

I don't think that was what T Ray was talking about. But I could be wrong!

[kung fu fighter]

Leung Jan said

"Bong Has Faults
Faults are not True Faults
Push Snakes Head-the Tail Bites\\ Push the Snakes Tail-The Head Bites
Push the Center-Thrust out with Bong"

[Sihing73]

Okay, I'll bite

Yip Man is reputed to have called Bong Sau the best or worst movement.
If done correctly it is most effective. If done incorrectly better to do nothing.

to me, a wrong or incorrect Bong Sau would be one in which you tried to use force to block a strike. IMO a proper Bong Sau is formed by your opponents energy and is used as a transitory deflection. To be effective the Bong Sau is momentary and sets the stage for something else, it does not stand alone.

As has already been mentioned on the previous thread, the elbow being raised is an unnatural position and opens the doors to attack. Perhaps this is what was being referred to

[sihing]

Bong sau = Recovery to hitting and elbows in setup, the basic usage and meaning.

But in WSLVT they say never to Bong, so I asked myself why do we bong so much in the drills? One reason I thought was that to Bong then Wu sau hit, to complete this action well in the drills, it gives you allot of elbow control and recovery/sensitivity, and since my elbow is the release of the power from the ground into my forearm out my fist/palm, this can help one get to that point of expertise..

As a 3rd or 4th reason to Bong, learning how to horizontal elbow, or shove while in close,,,again, why drop a "possible" usage for only one usage. I don't talk about this one until the student has the first one well within their skill set...

James

[YouKnowWho]

I have mentioned this before. The Bong has great value in grappling.

When your right hand is behind your opponent's neck (a "neck tie" in clinch), your opponent may use his left hand to punch on your head. Your can use your right Bong to hide your head behind it and deflect his left punch effortless.

Yip Man might drop a seed in the grappling world without knowing himself.

[KPM]

Well, this is what I posted on the other thread:

Because Bong Sao places you momentarily in a vulnerable position with your elbow up. So you should only spend as much time there as necessary to get the job done. Don't let it remain or the opponent will take advantage of your vulnerability. Also Bong Sao is purely defensive in nature whereas the other techniques also have an offensive quality. Taan and Fook both convert easily into a punch. But all of this still does not mean that the Bong has no position. Only that the position should be very brief!

So in this sense, Bong is a mistake if you used it inappropriately because it is a risk. But I don't think this is what T Ray had in mind either, since he posted his "Bong Sao is a mistake" comment after I had already written this.

So my assumption was that what T Ray was getting at is something taught by PB that most of us aren't aware of. I'm ready to hear about a different perspective! T Ray, where are you?

[KPM]

As a 3rd or 4th reason to Bong, learning how to horizontal elbow, or shove while in close,,,again, why drop a "possible" usage for only one usage. I don't talk about this one until the student has the first one well within their skill set...

James

Watch it James! I think you are getting dangerously close to talking about an "application."

[EternalSpring]

Indeed, bong sao is the result of a broken condom

[EternalSpring]

But being semi serious for a moment...

my sifu always said a few things about bong sao (take it how you want, for all i know, it could have just been advice to me for that specific moment in time), to mention 2 off the top of my head:

-Bong Sao is the weakest of your Ving Tsun techniques, that's why why you see it so much in Chum Kiu after Siu Nim Tao, because we make our weaknesses into strengths.

-Once people are comfortable with Bong sao, they start throwing it out to meet/block anything. Why? Tan and Fook will protect you so much more in a way familiar to your normal structure. Using Tan and Fook shows a better understanding than throwing out Bong Sao

[Vajramusti]

But being semi serious for a moment...

my sifu always said a few things about bong sao (take it how you want, for all i know, it could have just been advice to me for that specific moment in time), to mention 2 off the top of my head:

-Bong Sao is the weakest of your Ving Tsun techniques, that's why why you see it so much in Chum Kiu after Siu Nim Tao, because we make our weaknesses into strengths.

-Once people are comfortable with Bong sao, they start throwing it out to meet/block anything. Why? Tan and Fook will protect you so much more in a way familiar to your normal structure. Using Tan and Fook shows a better understanding than throwing out Bong Sao

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Bong sao imo is not "thrown out". It's not easy to learn well by some but is one of the 3 basic seeds of winchun.

[Hendrik]

Bong is a couple of tan , as fook and kei is a couple.

Bong is a counter clock wise drill in to the center line where tan is a clock wise drill in to the center line. So, when one direction stuck one can switch direction with the same side of the bridge.

Bong is a power enhance bridge because it is a elbow range tool which is used to receive better then wrist range bridge. Thus, one can have choice of bridge to use and also an extra tool within a single arm.

Bong is a double helix force flow tool where it has very strong torque power to spin a way any direct force flow. It can uproot because it spin, when direct force flow cannot cause uproot.


Like all tools one can make a mistake. It is just normal.


Know what is bong as it is instead of following what others saying.

[Mutant]

Leung Jan said

"Bong Has Faults
Faults are not True Faults
Push Snakes Head-the Tail Bites\\ Push the Snakes Tail-The Head Bites
Push the Center-Thrust out with Bong"

Ha! I was just gonna post that quote but I see you beat me to it

Sure you can think of bong as a mistake; its rigged to become your opponents mistake!

Some seem to put it just into the 'recovery' category, and sure that can be part of it's utility, but I think its more dynamic than that overall.

[YouKnowWho]

Just few months ago, I met a WC instructor. We talked about this exactly subject. I explained my concern on the risk in Bong. He said, "There is no risk". He then asked me to punch him. When I punched my "right" fist at his face, he used "right" Bong on me (wrong Bong).

Sometime even a master level WC instructor may use "wrong Bong" by mistake. How can we expect average students not to use "wrong Bone" by mistake?