Is Bong Sao a Mistake?

[KPM]

Just few months ago, I met a WC instructor. We talked about this exactly subject. I explained my concern on the risk in Bong. He said, "There is no risk". He then asked me to punch him. When I punched my "right" fist at his face, he used "right" Bong on me (wrong Bong).

Sometime even a master level WC instructor may use "wrong Bong" by mistake. How can we expect average students not to use "wrong Bone" by mistake?

There are some that would say that using any kind of Bong Sao as a primary action like that would be a mistake. You should only do a Bong Sao when the opponent makes you do a Bong Sao. Your first reaction to an attack should not be to "throw out a Bong Sao" because as I pointed out before it is a vulnerable position and purely defensive in nature. In contrast, if your first response is something like a Taan Sao or Pak Sao you can easily flow directly into a punch. So if your timing or placement is off or the opponent moves unexpectedly you just instinctively continue your Taan or Pak forward as a strike. You can't do that with Bong Sao.

The one circumstance where you might "throw out a Bong Sao" is if you are suddenly attacked from the side when you have your hands down. So you pivot and do a Bong as your arms rise to meet the surprise attack. This goes along with Sifu Duncan Leung's concept of "covering." That is one of the things taught in the Chum Kiu form. But we won't go there, because that would involve talking about "applications."

[FongSung]

Are you talking about Bong Sau (as usually expressed) or bong the "seed"
If bong the seed, I would say think about all it's permitations before saying it's a mistake.

[Wayfaring]

From my perspective, I would have to ask "which bong sao is a mistake"?

HFY teaches 3 - Hok Bong Sao (鶴膀手), Ying Bong Sao (鷹膀手), Laan Bong Sao (攔膀手).

Each has a different timeframe, energetics, and structure. And not all have an elevated elbow. I would say that "wrong bong" from my perspective would be to try and use the wrong bong sao in the wrong timeframe.

[Mutant]

From my perspective, I would have to ask "which bong sao is a mistake"?

HFY teaches 3 - Hok Bong Sao (鶴膀手), Ying Bong Sao (鷹膀手), Laan Bong Sao (攔膀手).

Each has a different timeframe, energetics, and structure. And not all have an elevated elbow. I would say that "wrong bong" from my perspective would be to try and use the wrong bong sao in the wrong timeframe.

Pin Sun has several different bongs too, and as one is thrown it can transmorph into another variation depending on the changing situation and openings. Bong should be thrown with the intention to hit the opponent as you strike off of bong. Not with the mentality of a block. As you reactively throw bong you just don't know what strike will come out of it until the situation in that instant plays out. But I'm sure this must be consistent between different lineages. Didn't Yip Man say that your opponent will show you how to hit them?

[LFJ]

Its not defensive the way we use it....It is part of our attack.

That's because it isn't some "sticking, yielding, and controlling" technique like some folks try to use it.

So presumably you start off using a tan or pak as some kind of blocking motion and you can then change it into a strike? ...and you can do this when someone is trying to fill you in?

Taan - paak - paak

[YouKnowWho]

Taan - paak - paak

This is a good example that no matter how fast that you can block, you will still get hit soon or later.

Your opponent:

- already knows your blocking pattern by doing few slow test before his real attack.
- knows that you are not hitting back, so he can concentrate 100% on his offense.
- can throw a fake punch, when you try to block it, he will hit your "new opening".
- ...

What's the best solution to deal with those kind of punches? By using the TCMA principle, you will need to "squeeze your opponent's space". In the modern term, you will need to get into clinching ASAP. In order to do so, you have to disable his striking arms one after another.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nWjcGRF-7g

A

- striker wants to use his arms to hit his opponent.
- grappler wants to disable his opponent's striking arms.

This is why one should get familiar with the grappler's thinking and have proper solution for it.

[Mutant]

That's because it isn't some "sticking, yielding, and controlling" technique like some folks try to use it.



Taan - paak - paak

While this is an entertaining clip demonstrating what-not-to-do, its misunderstanding the point of that basic drill.

I think the 'application' they were showing as faulty is the pak, tan, gum/gan two man set drill. I've seen that HFY has this and Pin Sun has versions of this too. Or maybe theyre just using that general pattern as and example.

They're missing the point. Its a beginner drill to teach some basic concepts, elbow positions, energy etc. It's not supposed to be turned around and applied like that. If it is that's a death wish. That;s like having someone throw punches with intent at you while you're performing sil lim tao. So of course it could never work like that.

Some of the information in that drill, however, can be used to deal with what the attacker is doing for sure. That's a rigged demo made to 'prove' a point, but it's a misconception.

Agreed with John's comments above which is right in line with correct strategy in this.

[KPM]

Don't start with the games T Ray. Just tell us straight up why you think that "Bong Sao is a mistake" as you posted in 2 other threads. Simple as that. Present your thinking and ideas without launching an attack on someone else's.

Yes.


Its not defensive the way we use it....It is part of our attack.


This would also be a mistake.... Its ok to throw out a tan or pak?


So presumably you start off using a tan or pak as some kind of blocking motion and you can then change it into a strike? ...and you can do this when someone is trying to fill you in?


....and again

[Graham H]

Don't start with the games T Ray. Just tell us straight up why you think that "Bong Sao is a mistake" as you posted in 2 other threads. Simple as that. Present your thinking and ideas without launching an attack on someone else's.

I like the way you are trying to pick holes in things at every given chance Keith. You even create new threads and put people on the spot like this. It must really gnarling at you that you are failing miserably to understand anything that we from the WSLPBVT are putting forward so continue with your little one man mission to try and justify your own ideas and prove ours wrong.

Anyway....................

Bong Sau is part of an attack. Coupled with the punch it becomes Kwan Sau. Bong can also be used a recovery tool if we have made a mistake and find ourselves in a compromised position. What is important in Bong Sau is the rotation speed of the elbow. Bong is not used for pressing or catching punches in order to divert them. This incorrect idea comes from the wrong practice of poon sau and chi sau.

If Bong Sau is performed correctly it allows you to open the way for you own attack at the same time as the opponent is attacking you. It allows you to attack the opponents attack with your own. How, when, why etc etc etc can only be realized by being shown in person within chi sau and gor sau and not from writing on a Wing Chun forum!

[LoneTiger108]

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Bong sao imo is not "thrown out". It's not easy to learn well by some but is one of the 3 basic seeds of winchun.

Are you talking about Bong Sau (as usually expressed) or bong the "seed"
If bong the seed, I would say think about all it's permitations before saying it's a mistake.

The only two posts here worth reading as at least they both use the magic word... SEED!

I think far too many people look at the Bong, Tan and Fook hand positions or whatever in a very static, non-fluid way and that will only ever destroy the possibility of developing and cultivating your Wng Chun skill.

Hence the word I am familiar with using to describe these 3 key methods... 3 SEEDS!

None of which are a mistake by the way, but all have strengths and weaknesses!

[Paddington]

I like the way you are trying to pick holes in things at every given chance Keith. You even create new threads and put people on the spot like this. It must really gnarling at you that you are failing miserably to understand anything that we from the WSLPBVT are putting forward so continue with your little one man mission to try and justify your own ideas and prove ours wrong.

Anyway....................

Bong Sau is part of an attack. Coupled with the punch it becomes Kwan Sau. Bong can also be used a recovery tool if we have made a mistake and find ourselves in a compromised position. What is important in Bong Sau is the rotation speed of the elbow. Bong is not used for pressing or catching punches in order to divert them. This incorrect idea comes from the wrong practice of poon sau and chi sau.

If Bong Sau is performed correctly it allows you to open the way for you own attack at the same time as the opponent is attacking you. It allows you to attack the opponents attack with your own. How, when, why etc etc etc can only be realized by being shown in person within chi sau and gor sau and not from writing on a Wing Chun forum!

I think I am familiar with how you guys use bong sau offensively and believe I have somewhat incorporated that into my chi sau. However, passively do you not find, Graham, that bong is great at dissipating energy and recovering from other positions that are collapsing under pressure?

I am not saying that bong is used to receive or intercept a strike but rather that through some contact with the opponent, a punch for example, the bong sau can be formed to dissipate an opponents force. Do you use your bong sau in this other sense too?

[Graham H]

The only two posts here worth reading as at least they both use the magic word... SEED!

I think far too many people look at the Bong, Tan and Fook hand positions or whatever in a very static, non-fluid way and that will only ever destroy the possibility of developing and cultivating your Wng Chun skill.

Hence the word I am familiar with using to describe these 3 key methods... 3 SEEDS!

None of which are a mistake by the way, but all have strengths and weaknesses!

Oh dear some more of your weird and wonderful Wing Chun ideas eh?b

So explain this.........How can two punches and an action that helps you to create a striking (tan, fook, bong) path have weaknesses? The only weaknesses come from people who can't use them properly and see them as blocks or for controlling arms.

[Graham H]

I think I am familiar with how you guys use bong sau offensively and believe I have somewhat incorporated that into my chi sau. However, passively do you not find, Graham, that bong is great at dissipating energy and recovering from other positions that are collapsing under pressure?

I am not saying that bong is used to receive or intercept a strike but rather that through some contact with the opponent, a punch for example, the bong sau can be formed to dissipate an opponents force. Do you use your bong sau in this other sense too?

I use my bong sau to protect and to open the way for the punch mate! End of story. No need to over analyse energies and positions. The action is too explosive and recovers too quickly to analyse anything once you can perform it.

[Paddington]

I use my bong sau to protect and to open the way for the punch mate! End of story. No need to over analyse energies and positions. The action is too explosive and recovers too quickly to analyse anything once you can perform it.

Yeah, I was just speaking from my experience. Here when I am placed under a heavy load, my bong sau just naturally comes into being and dissipates the opponents force. I mean force in a real sense and usually from opponents much bigger and heavier than I.

Yes, that is not a ballistic approach to bong but, I don't know, the only way I have found to manage opponents bigger and stronger than me (me 68 kg opponents often 90 kg + ), is via dissipating their mass and force via (di-) bong (and a step or turn). The bong used like this always feels, to me, a response to an emergency; people have commented that they can see me mouth the word s h i t when I pull off bongs like this to dissipate just before I recover and hit them .

Just to reiterate, I like the ballistic approach you outline just my body seems to use (di-) bong in different ways and I am not being overly analytical, just reporting on what my body does and if it works for me!

[LoneTiger108]

Oh dear some more of your weird and wonderful Wing Chun ideas eh?b

Oh dear... Yes... these Little Ideas are all my own...*cough* Heediot! *cough*

So explain this.........How can two punches and an action that helps you to create a striking (tan, fook, bong) path have weaknesses? The only weaknesses come from people who can't use them properly and see them as blocks or for controlling arms.

You tell me! You're the one on an ego mission dude. I am only pointing out the two most relevant posts here according to my warped understanding...

Maybe Joy or FongSung can explain as I am too busy today.