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Thread: Health Benefits of Santi Shi

  1. #1
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    Question Health Benefits of Santi Shi

    Hello,

    I know that Hsing Yi practice of the Five fists is supposed to have health benefits.
    Each fist is reputed to stimulate a specific organ.

    My question is regarding the Santi Shi posture or Trinity Pole Standing.
    Santi is the posture which originates the fists, perhaps I am not explaining it properly but essentially it is the standing posture taken in the beginning and the fists move from that posture.

    Anyhow, I am wondering if there are any reported health benefits from performing just the Santi or even just doing Standing Postures such as Zhan Zhuang.

    I am genuinely curious as I have started practicing the Santi this past week and it seems that I have seen a decrease in my blood sugar levels. I am wondering if this is related or simply a coincidence. Although, I have not made any changes to my diet or exercise and actually have taken less of my medication.

    Any input would be appreciated.
    Peace,

    Dave

    http://www.sifuchowwingchun.com
    Wherever my opponent stands--they are in my space

  2. #2
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    Health status is more than one variable so any activity in conjunction with zhanzhuang and santishi is positive. Zhanzhuang training has great benefit with digestive problems in conjunction with 'normalizing the diet' (i.e. eating healthy food as opposed to what is considered SAD.

  3. #3
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    Common sense tell us that

    - running is better than walking,
    - walking is better than standing,
    - standing is better than sitting,
    - sitting is better than laying down,
    - laying down is better than to be dead.

    If you move a

    - tree, that tree will die.
    - person, that person will live longer.

    If you walk 8 miles daily, in your

    - 1st 4 miles, all your body problem will be detected.
    - 2nd 4 miles, your body start to fix your problem.

    "Moving" is the key for longevity and not "standing" (which is still better than "sitting"). You can train a lot of combat skill when you move.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGxptvJlubY
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 10-13-2013 at 04:24 PM.
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  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post
    Hello,

    I know that Hsing Yi practice of the Five fists is supposed to have health benefits.
    Each fist is reputed to stimulate a specific organ.

    My question is regarding the Santi Shi posture or Trinity Pole Standing.
    Santi is the posture which originates the fists, perhaps I am not explaining it properly but essentially it is the standing posture taken in the beginning and the fists move from that posture.

    Anyhow, I am wondering if there are any reported health benefits from performing just the Santi or even just doing Standing Postures such as Zhan Zhuang.

    I am genuinely curious as I have started practicing the Santi this past week and it seems that I have seen a decrease in my blood sugar levels. I am wondering if this is related or simply a coincidence. Although, I have not made any changes to my diet or exercise and actually have taken less of my medication.

    Any input would be appreciated.
    Standing has many , many benefits that are not the same or avialiable from moving exercises, but like anything else, done wrong and benefits will vary. This probably is not the best place to ask about standing benefits, try some internal forums for better responses.

  5. #5
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    standing postures...

    I think I agree w/ YKW- that is a refreshing (and common sense) perspective to hear. I know one of my teachers, a Chinese doctor (who is older), walks for a few miles every morning. "Movement is the key to longevity."

    But I would also note that a lot of people don't know how to even properly use their bodies in the first place (the public at large). a lot of people have bad posture when it comes to performing even basic tasks. Standing posture may be the first steps one can take to correct this. As a martial artist this is very important. You will be more kinetically comfortable in your own body and how to use it, and may even enhance your ability to issue martial power, depending on your experience (if you have never done martial art before for instance.)

    Also in San Ti Shi your weight is on the back leg, you are working a stance w/ your knees unlocked, hands on guard Xing-Yi style. holding that for minutes on end is good conditioning for sure.

  6. #6
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    When you train "right leg forward, right hand forward" Santi Shi,

    http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=...electedIndex=7

    you should also train "right leg forward, left hand forward" (cross stance) Santi Shi.

    http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=...lectedIndex=11
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 10-14-2013 at 02:35 AM.
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    More opinion -> more argument
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    When you train "right leg forward, right hand forward" Santi Shi,

    http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=...electedIndex=7

    you should also train "right leg forward, left hand forward" (cross stance) Santi Shi.

    http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=...lectedIndex=11
    Thank you Shifu!

    The second example looks more compacted (equals more power building)!

  8. #8
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    Zhan zhuang has many health benefits, but not if you just stand still. There's nothing magical about zhan zhuang - it's just intended to promote a certain feeling of resistance which is difficult to explain because it comes in harmony with increased relaxation.

    Once you have the correct feeling you can play with the movement - either with movements so small that people will not be able to see you move, or with bigger movements, even walking.

    "Common sense" in this case is quite wrong - zhan zhuang is an excellent, if over-emphasised exercise. By the latter I mean it should only really be a small part of your training, but some people like to pretend that it's the be all and end all, as if it will grant magic powers. If you don't do bag/pad work and sparring then there's nothing for zhan zhuang to improve in that sense.

    I read an old Xing Yi master saying never hold the same posture for more than ten minutes, which is heresy to most yiquan people, but I agree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miqi View Post
    Zhan zhuang has many health benefits, but not if you just stand still. There's nothing magical about zhan zhuang - it's just intended to promote a certain feeling of resistance which is difficult to explain because it comes in harmony with increased relaxation.
    Some say it increases power/strength and is, in itself, an exercise. In fact, YiQuan founder himself may have beginning students stand stationary for extended periods of time.

    Not only that - but Wang Xiang Zhai, YiQuan Founder, student said they had athletes practice standing stake (nonmoving) and the athletes had significant notably improvement in ability that doctors of their time attested to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miqi View Post
    I read an old Xing Yi master saying never hold the same posture for more than ten minutes, which is heresy to most yiquan people, but I agree.
    Interesting. A student of YiQuan's founder not only teaches standing still for extended periods of time, he talks about how they would use standing stake to improve athletic performance and strength.

    The root practices we know of, from the remaining XinYi schools include standing stake as a regular practice, if not the single foundational building block upon which external movements are based.
    Last edited by Matthew; 10-14-2013 at 05:25 PM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post
    Hello,

    I know that Hsing Yi practice of the Five fists is supposed to have health benefits.
    Each fist is reputed to stimulate a specific organ.

    My question is regarding the Santi Shi posture or Trinity Pole Standing.
    Santi is the posture which originates the fists, perhaps I am not explaining it properly but essentially it is the standing posture taken in the beginning and the fists move from that posture.

    Anyhow, I am wondering if there are any reported health benefits from performing just the Santi or even just doing Standing Postures such as Zhan Zhuang.

    I am genuinely curious as I have started practicing the Santi this past week and it seems that I have seen a decrease in my blood sugar levels. I am wondering if this is related or simply a coincidence. Although, I have not made any changes to my diet or exercise and actually have taken less of my medication.

    Any input would be appreciated.
    I'm not sure about Santi, but did know that basic standing stake is regarded as a pillar in most nei-gong practices I'm aware of.

    YiQuan founder (who basically learned lots of various NeiGong practices in his time and reportedly did a good amount of sparring/fighting) Wang Xiang Zhai has a student that claims they saw significant notably performance improvement in athletes who practiced it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hx0UdZgP46k

    The basic idea being (all IME/IMU) if you can stand, (with slow, comfortable nasal breathing for the most part) for an extended period of time, you cannot lie to yourself about whether or not your body is holding tension.

    If your practice consists of instead going to hit the punching bags for an hour, or blow through only "Fa Li" external forceful forms and practices for a while - you can hold tension all the while.

    So, to learn to melt the tension entirely is like learning to ensure the breaks aren't on when driving. Or to fine tune the vehicle. You're making efficiency in bodily practice at the basic physical level.

    When it comes into self-cultivation practice, you are working at the mind-level to improve efficiency in mental processes.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew View Post
    Some say it increases power/strength and is, in itself, an exercise. In fact, YiQuan founder himself may have beginning students stand stationary for extended periods of time.

    Not only that - but Wang Xiang Zhai, YiQuan Founder, student said they had athletes practice standing stake (nonmoving) and the athletes had significant notably improvement in ability that doctors of their time attested to.

    I'm afraid that's just a misunderstanding of what I said. Standing still is never really just standing still - although it might look like that from the outside. Zhan zhuang involves a great deal of internal activity, by which I mean actual, physiological activity, such as playing with the resistance of forces, and activity of the mind.

    Just standing still probably does have some effects on relaxation and mental health - but in terms of its martial and proper health benefits, a great deal more is involved than people generally think.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew View Post
    Interesting. A student of YiQuan's founder not only teaches standing still for extended periods of time, he talks about how they would use standing stake to improve athletic performance and strength.

    The root practices we know of, from the remaining XinYi schools include standing stake as a regular practice, if not the single foundational building block upon which external movements are based.
    The issue - for me - is not the value of zhan zhuang, but its ridiculous over valuation. I'm not interested in pointless appeals to authority - show me the results of whatever it is you promote.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew View Post
    I'm not sure about Santi, but did know that basic standing stake is regarded as a pillar in most nei-gong practices I'm aware of.

    YiQuan founder (who basically learned lots of various NeiGong practices in his time and reportedly did a good amount of sparring/fighting) Wang Xiang Zhai has a student that claims they saw significant notably performance improvement in athletes who practiced it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hx0UdZgP46k
    Yu Yong Nang, according to Wang Zhang Zhai's daughter, claims all kinds of things, like being able to affect people without touching them via qi projection. Actually, Wang even rejected the notion of qi towards the end of his life, as part of his drive to create a truly scientific martial art. If you want believe Yu, go ahead - it's the opposite of what Wang was trying to achieve.


    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew View Post
    The basic idea being (all IME/IMU) if you can stand, (with slow, comfortable nasal breathing for the most part) for an extended period of time, you cannot lie to yourself about whether or not your body is holding tension.
    It's nothing to do with this at all. It's solely to do with physical and mental processes that have a practical training effect. These can be practiced without torturing oneself. All the bravado of holding through pain is just a side-show.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew View Post
    If your practice consists of instead going to hit the punching bags for an hour, or blow through only "Fa Li" external forceful forms and practices for a while - you can hold tension all the while.

    So, to learn to melt the tension entirely is like learning to ensure the breaks aren't on when driving. Or to fine tune the vehicle. You're making efficiency in bodily practice at the basic physical level.

    When it comes into self-cultivation practice, you are working at the mind-level to improve efficiency in mental processes.
    There's a study to be done on all these theoretical analogies and tropes. If you don't actually show what you've achieved, then it's quite easy to dismiss people who "merely punch bags for an hour". Maybe you should demonstrate your results before speaking. Until then, I say that a combination of both is the correct way, and that it is absoloutely nothing about - with the greatest of ironies - telling lies to oneself. If only we could eliminate that from CMA!

  13. #13
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    Hello,

    Thank you for the replies, some food for thought.

    I am not advocating simply standing still alone. There are of course internal aspects, for example in Hsing Yi one learns to concentrate the energy in six different directions as well while standing in Santi.

    Of course one should also do other exercises and practice as well. Standing is one piece of the pie not the whole.

    My curiosity stems from noticing that since beginning Santi, with no other changes, my blood sugar levels seem to run lower than before. This leads me to wonder if there are some benefits to the practice or perhaps a combination of several things.

    My understanding is that in Eastern arts or health methods, the focus is primarily on establishing balance to the body. Once balance is obtained then the body can work to heal itself. So my thinking was that perhaps standing in Santi was a way of re-establishing balance.
    Peace,

    Dave

    http://www.sifuchowwingchun.com
    Wherever my opponent stands--they are in my space

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post
    Hello,

    Thank you for the replies, some food for thought.

    I am not advocating simply standing still alone. There are of course internal aspects, for example in Hsing Yi one learns to concentrate the energy in six different directions as well while standing in Santi.

    Of course one should also do other exercises and practice as well. Standing is one piece of the pie not the whole.

    My curiosity stems from noticing that since beginning Santi, with no other changes, my blood sugar levels seem to run lower than before. This leads me to wonder if there are some benefits to the practice or perhaps a combination of several things.

    My understanding is that in Eastern arts or health methods, the focus is primarily on establishing balance to the body. Once balance is obtained then the body can work to heal itself. So my thinking was that perhaps standing in Santi was a way of re-establishing balance.
    The mind and the body are amazing things. Sometimes it's just the fact that you recognise that something is out of balance, and begin to do something - it could be walking, waving your arms around or yoga - even just getting out and being more sociable - and some things start improving.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miqi View Post
    I'm afraid that's just a misunderstanding of what I said. Standing still is never really just standing still - although it might look like that from the outside.
    I think you mean Zhan Zhuang/Xu Zhuang/San Ti is not just 'standing still' - but in either case I didn't disagree with you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miqi View Post
    The issue - for me - is not the value of zhan zhuang, but its ridiculous over valuation.
    Really?

    I have yet to see any American medical institutions OR well-known American martial arts circles promoting it (let alone researching it or over-valuing it).

    I would define over-valuation on it as being excessively researched, promoted in society, practiced, and viewed as an beneficial health-practice (none of which I see anywhere in America).

    Would you provide some evidence to your claim that there is "ridiculous over valuation" occurring?

    Obviously in the context of nei-gong arts practice, it fills a small portion of practice/knowledge, albeit a generally recognized fundamental pillar...

    As a fundamental pillar - research would be nice on it, but I doubt that would happen until there is even baseline-level valuation on the practice (let alone over-valuation).

    Quote Originally Posted by Miqi View Post
    Until [there is proof of its efficacy], I say that a combination of both [external Fa Li forceful practice and zhan zhuang] is the correct way
    Depends on what your goals are really, but I didn't decline either.. merely noted that if someone isn't practicing Nei Gong (such as basic Zhan Zhuang), then one could go about hitting punching bags in a very tense way, without exploring the "tuning of the engine" and the refining of physical and mental processes.

    IME, internal component of an art seeks to understand where Li (force) is generated, and work to improve the underlying pillars... if you are exploring the Chinese traditional medicine approach, this would be from Xin (habitual action and subconscious mind) and Yi (intent resulting from subconscious mind), and finally Qi (or different types of Qi in different ways depending on what Chinese text you are referring to) - which supports and underlies Li.

    There are many on this board who are trying to interpret ancient-chinese terminology/ discover what potential underlying materialistic system(s) may explain them.. that's nice too, as it leads to more research and discovery along the way.

    IMO, this talk is all great, but if one doesn't practice - then we can use any terminology we want and it wouldn't make a personal difference.

    You always mention wanting to see results - but you are vague on what results you want to see. I offer some unsolicited advice - to apply scientific method you first need a hypothesis before you can determine the parameters and know whether a method brings the results you want to see.

    Once we have the hypothesis, if our practice doesn't bring that result, then either 1) We are doing something wrong (methodology issue) and need clarification or 2) We understand the method, but it brings results we don't want and need new method

    Quote Originally Posted by Miqi View Post
    Yu Yong Nang [of Matthew's linked video] ... claims all kinds of things, like being able to affect people without touching them via qi projection.
    There are few practitioners I'm aware of claiming to be able to do this anywhere in the world, and only one of which I know of willing to put this into research.

    When I get time - I'll link you to a quite recent preliminary "Qi projection" study related to the Xin Yi Master She De Jian "affecting peoples Qi by projecting into their Yin Tang [point above the nose]" and measuring the receipients EEG Coherence Indexes. Good luck meeting someone who would claim this ability - let alone finding the funding, time, and research-team-with-relevant-skills to even test such claims. The preliminary study shows some interesting results, although I'm not in neuropsychology and can't claim ability to critically interpret the article.
    Last edited by Matthew; 10-15-2013 at 10:46 AM.

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