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Thread: Health Benefits of Santi Shi

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew View Post
    I think you mean Zhan Zhuang/Xu Zhuang/San Ti is not just 'standing still' - but in either case I didn't disagree with you.
    I meant precisely what I said - that when I talked of standing still, in zz, it is not simply standing still.


    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew View Post
    Really?

    I have yet to see any American medical institutions OR well-known American martial arts circles promoting it (let alone researching it or over-valuing it).
    Wow - that almost makes it sound like I said something silly. I meant its ridiculus over-valuation amongst the people and communities who use and recommend this training method, quite obviously not it's over-valuation amongst people who've never heard of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew View Post
    I would define over-valuation on it as being excessively researched, promoted in society, practiced, and viewed as an beneficial health-practice (none of which I see anywhere in America).
    Well I don't. Who cares what "America" thinks?

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew View Post

    Would you provide some evidence to your claim that there is "ridiculous over valuation" occurring?
    No, I don't need to provide any such evidence - "performing extended periods of zz is correct" is the basic position of almost everyone who recommends zz, as anyone involved in this debate should already know, before commenting. However, the briefest research will establish that what I have said is true.


    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew View Post
    Obviously in the context of nei-gong arts practice, it fills a small portion of practice/knowledge, albeit a generally recognized fundamental pillar...

    As a fundamental pillar - research would be nice on it, but I doubt that would happen until there is even baseline-level valuation on the practice (let alone over-valuation).
    If this means anything, I don't get it, so I don't care. You show me what you've gained from it - what you, personally, can claim to know about this practice. Otherwise, you should listen to me, and learn from me.


    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew View Post
    Depends on what your goals are really, but I didn't decline either.. merely noted that if someone isn't practicing Nei Gong (such as basic Zhan Zhuang), then one could go about hitting punching bags in a very tense way, without exploring the "tuning of the engine" and the refining of physical and mental processes.
    Boy am I sick of people using these tropes. You should drop out of the debate if you don't really follow the proper practice of serious training combined with zz. It's hard enough as it is to get proper information across, without people wanting their two penneth to be valued at a dollar.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew View Post
    IME, internal component of an art seeks to understand where Li (force) is generated, and work to improve the underlying pillars... if you are exploring the Chinese traditional medicine approach, this would be from Xin (habitual action and subconscious mind) and Yi (intent resulting from subconscious mind), and finally Qi (or different types of Qi in different ways depending on what Chinese text you are referring to) - which supports and underlies Li.
    I don't need to hide what i do behind this kind of facade.


    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew View Post
    There are many on this board who are trying to interpret ancient-chinese terminology/ discover what potential underlying materialistic system(s) may explain them.. that's nice too, as it leads to more research and discovery along the way.
    Yiquan is a scientific martial art based on historical and dialectical materialism. It is trans-historical and trans-national. It requires no understanding whatsoever of Chinese culture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew View Post
    IMO, this talk is all great, but if one doesn't practice - then we can use any terminology we want and it wouldn't make a personal difference.
    Well, that's not true either. False and misleading terminology doesn't help. And terminology which leads people away from real understanding of quan doesn't help. And in addition, it is hard enough to explain true concepts without people attempting to score petty points by deliberately misinterpreting things. You may listen to me, and learn the actual facts, or you may continue to hinder me in attempting to explain them. The really irritating thing is, it's not like what I'm trying to get across is particularly special - it's just a matter of seeing the implication and truth of it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew View Post

    You always mention wanting to see results - but you are vague on what results you want to see. I offer some unsolicited advice - to apply scientific method you first need a hypothesis before you can determine the parameters and know whether a method brings the results you want to see.

    Once we have the hypothesis, if our practice doesn't bring that result, then either 1) We are doing something wrong (methodology issue) and need clarification or 2) We understand the method, but it brings results we don't want and need new method
    You are hiding behind all of this. I just want you to show me what your method, your knowledge, your "experience" which you have mentioned several times, has led you to. I already know your level - the point isn't to make you show it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew View Post

    There are few practitioners I'm aware of claiming to be able to do this anywhere in the world, and only one of which I know of willing to put this into research.
    The truth is, those people are in hiding, because they live in fear that any of their claims might ever be tested by a serious dis-believer. Like all the Sam Tam's and all of the many others, they live pitiful lives protecting the illusion that they've built.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew View Post
    When I get time - I'll link you to a quite recent preliminary "Qi projection" study related to the Xin Yi Master She De Jian "affecting peoples Qi by projecting into their Yin Tang [point above the nose]" and measuring the receipients EEG Coherence Indexes. Good luck meeting someone who would claim this ability - let alone finding the funding, time, and research-team-with-relevant-skills to even test such claims. The preliminary study shows some interesting results, although I'm not in neuropsychology and can't claim ability to critically interpret the article.
    I don't know everything that there is. I don't claim to. But really this is just more smoke screen that people who genuinely want to reclaim quan just need to waft away. Behind it is still just you, and still just me.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miqi View Post
    Wow - that almost makes it sound like I said something silly. I meant its ridiculus over-valuation amongst the people and communities who use and recommend this training method, quite obviously not it's over-valuation amongst people who've never heard of it.


    Well I don't. Who cares what "America" thinks?
    You made a blanket generalization [about over-valuation of ZZ]. Then you back peddle and say that you only were referring to specific parties that you did not mention and won't provide evidence of.

    That's called trolling.

    Some people are trying to apply their methods to healing in a time where so many readily-preventable/fixable medical issues are so rampant.


    Quote Originally Posted by Miqi View Post
    If this means anything, I don't get it, so I don't care. You show me what you've gained from it - what you, personally, can claim to know about this practice. Otherwise, you should listen to me, and learn from me.
    I'm learning a lot, although I don't know that you are intentionally teaching what it is that I'm learning from you.


    Quote Originally Posted by Miqi View Post
    Boy am I sick of people using these tropes [ such as Chinese traditional context/definitions of Xin, Yi, Qi, or Li] .
    I don't need to hide what i do behind this kind of facade.
    The art you keep claiming is called "YiQuan" which uses the very chinese term I just discussed.
    If my response is so stupid, and those terms are so useless, then why would you even put a name to the "art" you claim to do?


    Quote Originally Posted by Miqi View Post
    You are hiding behind all of this.
    I am somewhat stupid, so if what I post doesn't make sense - ignore it and please don't let it afflict you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miqi View Post
    I just want you to show me what your method, your knowledge, your "experience" which you have mentioned several times, has led you to.
    See what? You don't even have a goal yet - how can you know what you want people to show you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Miqi View Post
    I already know your level - the point isn't to make you show it.
    It would behoove you to make others aware of your point publicly.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew View Post
    You made a blanket generalization [about over-valuation of ZZ]. Then you back peddle and say that you only were referring to specific parties that you did not mention and won't provide evidence of.

    That's called trolling.
    Then be clear now - I mean the valuation placed on zz amongst the communities that use and recommend this practice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew View Post
    Some people are trying to apply their methods to healing in a time where so many readily-preventable/fixable medical issues are so rampant.
    I'm afraid you can't help people with what you don't really understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew View Post
    I'm learning a lot, although I don't know that you are intentionally teaching what it is that I'm learning from you.
    Well that is very much the point, isn't it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew View Post
    The art you keep claiming is called "YiQuan" which uses the very chinese term I just discussed.
    If my response is so stupid, and those terms are so useless, then why would you even put a name to the "art" you claim to do?
    Just because you don't really understand what you're talking about doesn't mean that these ideas and terms are stupid.


    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew View Post
    I am somewhat stupid, so if what I post doesn't make sense - ignore it and please don't let it afflict you.
    Well if that was my intention, I wouldn't be writing here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew View Post
    See what? You don't even have a goal yet - how can you know what you want people to show you?
    Don't be silly, I don't expect you to show me anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew View Post
    It would behoove you to make others aware of your point publicly.
    The point is to make clear that you won't show anything or demonstrate what any of this means in actual practice to us, despite pages of convoluted theory. That is one stage along the path of getting rid of people like that from hanging on to quan, where they have no business hanging.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miqi View Post
    That is one stage along the path of getting rid of people like that from hanging on to quan, where they have no business hanging.
    Oh - now I see why you keep posting misrepresenting others arguments, and distracting double-talk about "truth" and "what is your level"
    ------------
    You are talking about "quan" in a Traditional Chinese Medicine section of this forum.

    You then complain about Traditional Chinese concepts, and claim that your chinese concepts (yiquan) is actually science (but you don't have evidence).
    ---------------
    You are talking about "quan" in a health benefits thread.

    You then complain and troll about "over valuation" of ZZ and people taking over "quan" in a thread of about Health.

    ----------

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post
    Hello,

    Thank you for the replies, some food for thought.

    I am not advocating simply standing still alone. There are of course internal aspects, for example in Hsing Yi one learns to concentrate the energy in six different directions as well while standing in Santi.
    Thanks, I noticed there are many slight variations on these basic ZZ, isn't it?

    Either way, it seems they are postural improvements. I noticed many secondary/tertiary level physical responses after practicing consistently (better sleep, improved bowel movement consistency, reduced effort in some manual labor tasks, improved concentration)... but for your question about research it would be very hard to isolate these improvements against other life variables (job stressors, life changes, weather conditions, diet/sleep consistency, and other variables).

    With those difficulty in variables for research, and the funding issue (funding alternative, free treatment, etc.) - isn't it just too hard to have some actual hard-cold facts on this?

    If we experiment this ourselves and note improvement - isn't that already a great thing and worth sharing?



    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post
    My curiosity stems from noticing that since beginning Santi, with no other changes, my blood sugar levels seem to run lower than before. This leads me to wonder if there are some benefits to the practice or perhaps a combination of several things.

    My understanding is that in Eastern arts or health methods, the focus is primarily on establishing balance to the body. Once balance is obtained then the body can work to heal itself. So my thinking was that perhaps standing in Santi was a way of re-establishing balance.
    The video I linked makes many similar such claims, and apparently the guy (YongNian) wrote a book based on his research. Not sure what parameters he set, how or if he controlled for variables, sample sizes, etc. but they discuss it here:
    http://www.emptyflower.net/forums//i...showtopic=5140


    Other teachers teaching these ZZ usually make similar claims.

    I don't see anyone sticking to Miqi's unfounded claims that it is "over-valued" and the only thing people should do, well we have to take everyones claims with a grain of salt and try it out if we want to see what happens.

  6. #21
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    Do anybody truly believe that to stand still like this,

    http://imageshack.us/a/img404/8081/c...ingposture.jpg

    will give you better benefit than to move around like this?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jI_...ature=youtu.be

    Please notice that when you are moving, your

    - right hand has to coordinate with your left foot, and
    - left hand has to coordinate with your right foot.

    The outer 3 harmonies just cannot be trained in static ZZ.
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 10-17-2013 at 01:37 PM.
    http://johnswang.com

    More opinion -> more argument
    Less opinion -> less argument
    No opinion -> no argument

  7. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    Do anybody truly believe that to stand still like this,

    http://imageshack.us/a/img404/8081/c...ingposture.jpg

    will give you better benefit than to move around like this?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jI_...ature=youtu.be

    Please notice that when you are moving, your

    - right hand has to coordinate with your left foot, and
    - left hand has to coordinate with your right foot.

    The outer 3 harmonies just cannot be trained in static ZZ.
    There are beifits from proper zz standing, if you do it right you will know what they are, if done wrong, you won't know.

    Your logic is not right anyway, it is a combination of balance that is needed, not just one thing. If you have a engine, will it run better on gas or water ?, doing only external training is like trying to run your engine using water.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robinhood View Post
    There are beifits from proper zz standing, if you do it right you will know what they are, if done wrong, you won't know.

    Your logic is not right anyway, it is a combination of balance that is needed, not just one thing. If you have a engine, will it run better on gas or water ?, doing only external training is like trying to run your engine using water.
    I assume this thread is talking about "health benefit" of ZZ. IMO, the dynamic ZZ has more "health benefit" than the static ZZ.

    Here is another example of static ZZ:

    http://imageshack.us/a/img705/1382/13taibo1.jpg

    and dynamic ZZ.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LTr...ature=youtu.be
    http://johnswang.com

    More opinion -> more argument
    Less opinion -> less argument
    No opinion -> no argument

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    I assume this thread is talking about "health benefit" of ZZ. IMO, the dynamic ZZ has more "health benefit" than the static ZZ.

    Here is another example of static ZZ:

    http://imageshack.us/a/img705/1382/13taibo1.jpg

    and dynamic ZZ.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LTr...ature=youtu.be
    This is very much the conclusion that I've come to - although I do believe that some static training is important. Stillness, slow movement and fa li are really all the same thing, done at different speeds and sizes - as someone once said, I can't remember who now but it was a credible source - either old Wang or one of the Yao brothers.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robinhood View Post
    There are beifits from proper zz standing, if you do it right you will know what they are, if done wrong, you won't know.

    Your logic is not right anyway, it is a combination of balance that is needed, not just one thing. If you have a engine, will it run better on gas or water ?, doing only external training is like trying to run your engine using water.
    One of the more useful definitions of "internal" is the unfolding of innate, natural ability and knowledge. This is one of the reasons why arcane theory about jins and qi are largely irrelevant - zz cuts stright to the actual physiological and psycho-physiological level.

    Sounds grand but it just means that ZZ is very useful because it increases a person's control over their body - i.e. the interconnection between intent and performance, what you want to do and what you do do. This is why it is useful for all sports, and even for medical purposes. Alexander, for example, technique uses some very similar ideas. True though, without proper understanding of the method, it is pointless.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew View Post
    Oh - now I see why you keep posting misrepresenting others arguments, and distracting double-talk about "truth" and "what is your level"
    ------------
    You are talking about "quan" in a Traditional Chinese Medicine section of this forum.

    You then complain about Traditional Chinese concepts, and claim that your chinese concepts (yiquan) is actually science (but you don't have evidence).
    ---------------
    You are talking about "quan" in a health benefits thread.

    You then complain and troll about "over valuation" of ZZ and people taking over "quan" in a thread of about Health.

    ----------
    Dear Mathew,
    You are dismissed. I recommend going to sit in the darkness, and there to ponder what it really means to oppose real knowledge.

  12. #27
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    Last edited by Miqi; 10-18-2013 at 09:00 AM.

  13. #28
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    Yao Cheng Rong, (translated by J P Lau):

    "There are two goals in Zhang Zhuang: improving health and cultivate the balanced force. If you turn Zhan Zhuang into an endurance practice by seeking only to lengthen your standing time, then you have missed the real meaning; you are doing “dead” standing. You must use visualization to direct your whole-body neuromuscular coordination to seek movement in stillness, to cultivate the internal opposing force pairs and to master your balanced force. Always practice with focused concentration and comfortable natural ease. Breathe naturally; specifically do not pay attention to breathing; do not hold your breath. Match your physical and mental condition to the length of your training time; do not overstress your abilities. "

  14. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Miqi View Post
    Dear Mathew,
    You are dismissed. I recommend going to sit in the darkness, and there to ponder what it really means to oppose real knowledge.
    Miqi, you pretentious wanker. You don't represent "real knowledge." You're a just another seeker with an attitude. Your bullying shows just how insecure you really are. And half the time what you say is so pretentious it sounds like you think you're the fat valkyrie in something by Wagner.

  15. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    Do anybody truly believe that to stand still like this,

    http://imageshack.us/a/img404/8081/c...ingposture.jpg

    will give you better benefit than to move around like this?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jI_...ature=youtu.be

    Please notice that when you are moving, your

    - right hand has to coordinate with your left foot, and
    - left hand has to coordinate with your right foot.

    The outer 3 harmonies just cannot be trained in static ZZ.
    Early in the morning while the body is just waking up, it feels right to stand still for a while.

    I don't think I've run into anyone who thinks standing still should exclude movement training.

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