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Originally Posted by chunner
I have been planning on sending Hendrik a vid of the first form and the sections of the dummy that do not have a corresponding section in the Yip Man form. If i can figure out how I will place online where you can watch it. Easier than describing.
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Kwai family 4th form is basically those concepts and idea's that did not make it into the 3 standard forms. However many of the concepts became including in our knife and dummy forms. Basically 4th form are parts of the original long form plus some LYT san sik.
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Hi Guys!
hunt1 & dlcox (it would be nice to know some real names) I was wondering if both of you could lay out your lineage for us and what version of WCK you have learned. What both of you have to say is very interesting, but without knowing where you are coming from makes the context of it all more difficult to place. Thanks!
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I am with you. Its part of the tradition but if you don't learn it I dont think you miss anything. There are a few interesting Ideas some footwork and different elbows but nothing that doesn't pop up if you experiment with the dummy sections and empty hand weapon forms
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Hi Guys!
hunt1 & dlcox (it would be nice to know some real names
Hunter von Unschuld. Lineage all over the place. First teacher Richard Chen who was a student of Jui Wan and also one of Moy Yats early disciples. Most time in years spent with Phil Nearing. some trips to visit TST among others ,time with Sam Kwok and Yip Brothers, eye opening weekend with Robert Chu. A few days visiting with a student of Yip Bo Ching. A little Andeas Hoffman time. Final student of Chao Ng Kwai,actually his project to fight boredom was to fix my wing chun. After his death Danny Chao would visit me once a year to fill in what ever his grandfather didn't show me although I think it was just an excuse to play in the cash poker games here.
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Thanks Hunter! I grew up in NM, went to NMSU, and my brother-in-law lives just outside of Tierras. Maybe someday we can get together for lunch when I'm visiting. My wife makes it back more often than I do.
What is the background of the Wing Chun that Chao Ng Kwai showed you? Does it trace back to Leung Jan or someone else? Thanks!
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Thats great Keith. Give me a heads up and we can get some green chili.
Lo Kwai is the source from Leung Jan. Chao Ng Kwai was the son of Lo Kwai's nephew.
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Hi dlcox,
Are you from leung Jan's student Fung Wah's linage or Yuen Chai Wan's Vietnamese wing chun?
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Do you practice Fung Wah linage wing chun?
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One researcher seems to consider Leung Bik's teaching role a given (fact): http://chinesemartialstudies.com/201...ans-wing-chun/
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Interesting article! Thanks for the link! Here is what the author had to say about the Ip Man/Leung Bik connection:
In total, Chan Wah Shun only taught about 16 students over the course of his career. The last of these was the son of his landlord, a child named Ip Kai Man. Unfortunately Chan soon fell ill and later suffered from a stroke. Most of Ip Man’s training seems to have come from Chan’s second disciple, Ng Chung So.
The actual nature of Ip Man’s introduction to Wing Chun is somewhat hard to disentangle. As the son of a rich merchant and landlord he spent most of his days studying literature rather than Kung Fu. Then, as a teenager, he was sent to Hong Kong to attend a western high school. This might have put an end to his Wing Chun training except that by an accident of fate he was introduced to Leung Bik, Leung Jan’s remaining son.
The elderly Leung Bik had never sought to teach Kung Fu and had not been involved with the new commercial institutions that were quickly transforming the world of the southern Chinese martial arts. Instead his relationship with Ip Man seems to have reflected the older 19th century patterns. He moved in with new student, who provided him with food, clothing and housing, in exchange for tuition. In short, Leung Bik became a temporary member of the wealthy young student’s household.
This actually puts Ip Man in a very interesting position. Much has been made of the fact that he received both a Confucian and Western education. But in terms of understanding his Wing Chun, it is important to realize that he likewise received both a modern early 20th century and a more traditional 19th century introduction to the martial arts as well. Few if any of Chan Wah Shun’s other students (perhaps with the exception of some of those who had previously studied in another style) could say this.
Ip Man carefully considered what he learned from both Chan Wah Shun and Leung Bik. By his own admission he thought deeply about not just their techniques, but how they taught as well. Except for a brief episode in the 1940s, Ip Man avoided opening his own school in Guangdong during the volatile Republic of China years. Yet after fleeing to Hong Kong in 1949 he was left with little other choice.
Obviously he puts more detail into the story than most Yip Man people that retell it! Where did that extra detail come from? He talks about research and being a social scientist, but does not list references or note his sources. I think he is interjecting a lot of his own assumptions into this narrative, and isn't that one of the huge problems in sorting out myth from fact???
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Does anyone know what the literal chinese words "Leung Bik" means? perhaps that can give us a clue as to who leung Bik refers to?
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Ha, his given name Bik means 'wall'. Refers to a dead end I suppose.
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Interesting article!!
The oral story I heard was also very similar. Ip Man's comments on LB . IM asked his father for additional money because of his support for Leung Bik in his earlier stay in HK when LB was old... Leung Bik also had a daughter whose footwork at one time was superior to that of Ip Man. She did not teach anyone. And Leung Bik did not teach in a school. Old time kung fu people generally had only a few students and who were close to them unlike commercial schools today.
More important than the could have been speculations and "history" is the physical evidence. Ip Man's kung fu is different from that of Chan Wah Shun, YKS and others. And weng chun as well.When Ip Man says that he learned a deeper and more systematic wing chun from
Leung Bik, I dont see a need for being obsessed with it. Ip Man had many people attend his HK classes ( he taught some individuals before HK but did not have a formal school)- but only a handful got a deep sense of what wing chun is about. It takes consistent and regular and good instruction for 6 to 8 years IMO to learn wing chun in any depth.I also do san sik motions and drills... as applications of wing chun concepts and notes on the form. But the notes are not the symphony. Unfortunately much of contemporary wig chun that I see
is made up ex nihilo. The san sik that I do involves different combinations of 20 motions which can be done solo or with a partner.
Ho Kam Ming' intense learning with Ip Man was regular for7years. He kept in regular contact withIM after that.He was with IMin HK earlier on the day that he died. When HKM returned to Macao Ip Ching called him to tell him
that IM had just died.IM gave him a copy of Leung Jan's notes . Ip Chun has a copy.
Leung Jan apart from being present at a critical time in kung fu development was a great master of the pole. Unconfirmed but interesting story - he defeateda great Hung master possibly the greatWong Fei Hung.
There really isnt an elaborate wing chun history- and it's not necessary for doing wing chun. Getting good instruction, understanding throughly the concepts and principles, practice and application and experience
are far more important than idle speculation. Getting people to agree with you is no history- instead it is an example of the fallacy of misplaced concreteness.
joy chaudhuri
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I agree with your observation. If Fung Wah was a Leung Jan student why was he not mentioned in IMWC history? If Ip Man studied with Fung Wah and he was a Leung Jan student, then this would have been justification enough for why his Wing Chun changed. There would have been no need to switch his name to Leung Bik. So was there something about Fung Wah later in life that made Ip Man not want to be associated with him? Was Leung Bik a nickname for Fung Wah that was known by enough people that it was just accepted? Did Fung Wah have a reason for asking Ip Man to keep their relationship on the down-low? Very interesting!
If Leung Bik had a daughter as Joy stated, then he very likely has existing family members. Why have they not surfaced or been located? But....if that daughter was actually Fung Wah's daughter and no one associates their family with Leung Bik, that would explain it.
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