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Thread: Nice version of vinh xuan

  1. #1
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    No centerline, no wing chun.

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    Looks a whole lot like the Chi Sao done in Pin Sun WCK!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric_H View Post
    No centerline, no wing chun.
    Center line is but only one concept/principle in wing chun, there are many others. Don't be a slave to center line, flow is also important. and if you know what to look for there is a center line awareness in what they are doing, but not in the obvious way that most are used to.

    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    Looks a whole lot like the Chi Sao done in Pin Sun WCK!
    Yes i agree this chi sao platform is similar to the double circling hands chi sao cycle in many of the mainland wck linages including Pin sun wck.
    Last edited by kung fu fighter; 10-14-2013 at 09:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kung fu fighter View Post
    Center line is but only one concept/principle in wing chun, there are many others.
    It is also but only the most central principle the rest of the system is based upon. Take that out and everything else ceases to function.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    It is also but only the most central principle the rest of the system is based upon. Take that out and everything else ceases to function.
    who said anything about taking it out? the problem is too many WCKpeople misunderstand what the center line principle is all about. As someone once said "don't look at the finger pointing at the moon" the finger pointing is just the tool.
    Last edited by kung fu fighter; 10-14-2013 at 10:18 PM.

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    So what is it about in this vinh xuan?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    So what is it about in this vinh xuan?
    controlling the center line without being a restricted or bound by the centerline.
    Last edited by kung fu fighter; 10-14-2013 at 10:31 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kung fu fighter View Post
    controlling the center line without being a restricted or bound by the centerline.
    When we talk about "centerline", we have to talk about the Chinese spear technique. The spear is used to stab at your opponent's heart (his center) more than any other weapon does.

    The Chinese spear technique only has 3 major moves. the

    - stab,
    - clockwise circle,
    - counter clockwise circle.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pY4a...ature=youtu.be

    All WC systems have the stab. Does all WC system also have the clockwise circle and counter clockwise circle? Apparently some WC system have it.

    If you can move both of your arms in circle with your

    - left arm moving in a clockwise circle, and
    - right arm moving in a counter clockwise circle,

    you can seal your center line (the intersection of both circles) tightly that no incoming attack can go through.

    http://imageshack.us/a/img51/6126/tfep.jpg
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 10-15-2013 at 12:03 AM.
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    To work off of what John is saying......there are two strategies when it comes to defending the centerline. You can occupy the centerline and defend it from the inside outward, or you can leave the centerline open and defend it from the outside inward. Southern Mantis uses the second strategy. Most Wing Chun uses the first strategy. Some Wing Chun also makes more use of the second strategy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    Looks a whole lot like the Chi Sao done in Pin Sun WCK!
    Wah! All these labels

    Pin Sun Wing Chun as we all have seen through the years has a flavour of mainland interactive training, as does the Vietnamese clip here. Call it Chisau or whatever you like, it is a far stretch from the common Ip Man chisau we commonly see, and fwiw very few even do that justice.

    2 arms against 2 arms has a set of variations which people here with basic experience should be able to share, and I would suggest if you don't know what I am talking about then you need to revisit your Sifu and ask some hard and fast questions... Ip Man revised this type of mainland interaction to get to where we were at in the 1960s and then after the boom of the 70s everything changed.

    There is value to everything if you understand the objectives.
    Ti Fei
    詠春國術

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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    All WC systems have the stab. Does all WC system also have the clockwise circle and counter clockwise circle? Apparently some WC system have it.
    Yes, Biu and Huen

    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    To work off of what John is saying......there are two strategies when it comes to defending the center line. You can occupy the centerline and defend it from the inside outward, or you can leave the centerline open and defend it from the outside inward. Southern Mantis uses the second strategy. Most Wing Chun uses the first strategy. Some Wing Chun also makes more use of the second strategy.
    most Mainland wck uses both strategies, where as yip man wck place more emphasis on the first strategy.

    In my humble opinion, the first strategy is great for beginner to intermediate level students as it drills in the idea of the center line, but I find too man yip man WCK practioners get stuck at that level thinking that is the be all and end all in chi sao development. There ragid way of thinking does not allow there skill level to advance beyond the first level to the second strategy which develops flow. just my 2 cents based on my observation during my research into a few different mainland wck linages. Both strategies are equally as important.
    Last edited by kung fu fighter; 10-15-2013 at 07:18 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    To work off of what John is saying......there are two strategies when it comes to defending the centerline. You can occupy the centerline and defend it from the inside outward, or you can leave the centerline open and defend it from the outside inward. Southern Mantis uses the second strategy. Most Wing Chun uses the first strategy. Some Wing Chun also makes more use of the second strategy.
    Strategy 1 (straight line against circle): occupy the centerline and defend it from the inside outward,
    Strategy 2 (circle against straight line): leave the centerline open and defend it from the outside inward.

    In clinching, if you want to control the

    - "upper" part of your opponent's body, you use strategy 1. A double outward circles will put your arms "above" your opponent's arms.
    - "lower" part of your opponent's body, you use strategy 2. A double inward circles will put your arms "under" your opponent's arms.

    Quote Originally Posted by kung fu fighter View Post
    the first strategy is great for beginner to intermediate level students as it drills in the idea of the center line, but I find too man yip man WCK practioners get stuck at that level thinking that is the be all and end all in chi sao development. There ragid way of thinking does not allow there skill level to advance beyond the first level to the second strategy which develops flow. just my 2 cents based on my observation during my research into a few different mainland wck linages. Both strategies are equally as important.
    If you over emphasize "straight line", you will totally ignore the circular punches such as

    - hook (haymaker),
    - uppercut,
    - hammer fist,
    - back fist,
    - side punch (XingYi Heng Chuan),
    - Ha Chuan (start circular but end with straight),
    - ...

    It's OK to start your striking skill development from jab and cross. But there are more after that. The moment that you start to train strategy 2, you have just open a new door right in front of you.

    This is just my opinion about "general TCMA training path". It has nothing to do with any particular style.
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 10-15-2013 at 12:28 PM.
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  14. #14
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    Wah! All these labels

    ---But labels are important! How would we know what someone else is talking about without being able to categorize or label it?

    Pin Sun Wing Chun as we all have seen through the years has a flavour of mainland interactive training,

    ---Yes. Because it IS "mainland"!

    Call it Chisau or whatever you like, it is a far stretch from the common Ip Man chisau we commonly see, and fwiw very few even do that justice.

    ---I invite anyone to go back and look at that clip again. The Chi Sao they are doing is not simply "Huen Chi Sao" circling wrists. It is more like the Pin Sun Chi Sao that uses a coiling action. In Pin Sun it is often described as "two snakes seeking an opening." If you watch closely you will see some Bong Sao's naturally resulting in the action. If you've done both this kind of Chi Sao and the Yip Man Luk Sao Chi Sao it is easy to see how the Yip Man/Yuen Kay San version evolved from this older rolling platform. This also supports the idea that the Luk Sao roll was developed by either Yuen Kay San or Yip Man and shared. Vietnamese Wing Chun comes from Yuen Kay San's brother. The brother learned from the same source as YKS, but likely didn't learn the Luk Sao roll because it doesn't show up in the lineage he established in Viet Nam. Yip Man WCK and Yuen Kay San WCK seem to be the only lineages with the Luk Sao rolling platform. When we see it in other lineages, its likely because they have picked it up fairly recently.


    Ip Man revised this type of mainland interaction to get to where we were at in the 1960s and then after the boom of the 70s everything changed.

    ---The story told by Sum Nung was that Yuen Kay San was the one that came up with the Luk Sao rolling in association with Sum Nung himself and Yip Man. Hard to know one way or the other. But given that YKS was older and more senior than Yip Man.......
    Last edited by KPM; 10-15-2013 at 12:39 PM.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by kung fu fighter View Post
    if you know what to look for there is a center line awareness in what they are doing, but not in the obvious way that most are used to.
    I know what I'm looking for, it's not present. Body structure doesn't lie.

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