Nice version of vinh xuan

[KPM]

Labels are for those that are buying products.

---No. Labels are a way of categorizing things and categorizing things are necessary in a discussion setting. Can you imagine trying to talk about football without "labeling" the various teams, coaches, etc.?


Seriously... you are still debating who came up with what? Rather than look a little more deeply and see that it was all there in the first place? I have heard these stories too and you know the only constant? Ip Man.

---I'm not debating anything. I threw the idea out there on a thread showing a Chi Sao platform. You can take it or leave it. If you've heard the stories too, then you'll know that Yip Man is not the only constant. Yuen Kay San is a constant as well. There was definitely a link between the two and the Luk Sao Chi Sao platform.


but people prefer to promote areas and villages rather than the real life people behind all this knowledge. Maybe this is because all we have is lists of names with little evidence of their existence other than the list of names!

---I have no idea what you are trying to say here Spencer.


From what I have been told, there were very specific and serious reasons why Lee Shing baisi to Ip Man, and why that was rushed too. He had travelled throughout East Asia beforehand searching out the Masters. Nothing to do with teaching publically either, because in the 60's it was one single Wing Chun Pai.

---And what does that have to do with this discussion? Does everything come down to Lee Shing for you?


So who created what exactly? It's all pure speculation IMHO

---Yeah. It is all speculation. But some things fit with what we know better than other things and therefore seem more likely. The fact is, there is no evidence that anyone was using the Luk Sao Chi Sao platform prior to Yip Man and Yuen Kay San. It seems to have started with these two gentleman. Exactly which of them was the innovator is hard to say since we weren't there. But more than one source has stated that it was Yuen Kay San. And at least one of those sources (Sum Nun) was actually there.

[LoneTiger108]

Can you imagine trying to talk about football without "labeling" the various teams, coaches, etc.?

Football is a funny old game, pretty much a product for sale these days. Wing Chun is a Martial Art that was never supposed to be marketed and sold as a product. But I do understand your point.

If you've heard the stories too, then you'll know that Yip Man is not the only constant. Yuen Kay San is a constant as well. There was definitely a link between the two and the Luk Sao Chi Sao platform.

So if you know this and have experienced what you talk of... show it!

Break it down in a clip or two and show the exact development you are talking about. It will become clearer for everyone if somebody can just do that. And the same can be asked of anyone from YKS family too, but as far as I have seen nobody has been able to share anything like I am asking. But please... be the first!

---And what does that have to do with this discussion? Does everything come down to Lee Shing for you?

Er... well... yes it does.

Maybe this is because I am a student of one of his students? Maybe it is because I am loyal to just one Sifu? Maybe it's because I am simply nuts?

And yes, it is related to the thread because I was simply 'throwing it out there' that there was more people than YKS out there developing the best way to interact! 11 others directly related to be fair. And after all my Sigungs research and training, he chose to represent Ip Man because of what he had developed, or like you say, possibly learnt from his elders like YKS.

The fact is, there is no evidence that anyone was using the Luk Sao Chi Sao platform prior to Yip Man and Yuen Kay San.

Ok I will throw something else into the mix... the programs I learnt included quite a few set currculums (including Ip Mans) written in Chinese. Curriculums I say, not Kuit or poems or such like. Curriculums.

One was of the interactive developments known to Wing Chun students, and two of them were Luksau and Chisau among others. As far as I know this was not made up information or language, it had existed in Ng Jung So's time and possibly been taught by Chan Wah Shun all the way back to Leung Jan. This is what Ip Man had access to and it's likely it came from the Fatshan schools.

So my query is, if the language existed before even Ip Man and YKS had ever met, then maybe all they done was attempt to figure out what these platforms were about? Thus developing what we think is new, but in fact only reinventing what was already there... Chisau and Luksau.

For me, that sounds far more logical because again, like I have said, there were guys like Simon Lau and Wai Po Tang teaching in London in the 70s and 80s and they had a different platform than Ip Mans HK guys that was more familiar to me when I trained. Both learnt from Fatshan and Vietnam too funnily enough, and both had to go through my Sigung and ask permission from Ip Man before they taught in the UK!

So when I see clips like the one posted, it only strengthens the case that the mainland doesn't know or has any interest in what was developed later by YKS, Ip Man or whoever!! They are all too keen to preserve and promote what they do now, and all repsect to them for that!

[KPM]

So if you know this and have experienced what you talk of... show it!

---Show what? What do you want me to do?

Break it down in a clip or two and show the exact development you are talking about.

---A clip of what? All you have to do is look at the Chi Sao clips here, then compare it to any of Yip Man lineage or Yuen Kay San lineage people doing Chi Sao. There was no intermediate step.


It will become clearer for everyone if somebody can just do that. And the same can be asked of anyone from YKS family too, but as far as I have seen nobody has been able to share anything like I am asking. But please... be the first!

---Maybe because no one has been sure of what you are asking for?


And yes, it is related to the thread because I was simply 'throwing it out there' that there was more people than YKS out there developing the best way to interact! 11 others directly related to be fair. And after all my Sigungs research and training, he chose to represent Ip Man because of what he had developed, or like you say, possibly learnt from his elders like YKS.

---Ok. Again I will say....it is unclear to me what you are getting at. Lee Shing chose to represent Yip Man because of what he had developed or possibly learnt from YKS? How does that change what I said?


One was of the interactive developments known to Wing Chun students, and two of them were Luksau and Chisau among others.

---But who wrote these documents and when?

As far as I know this was not made up information or language, it had existed in Ng Jung So's time and possibly been taught by Chan Wah Shun all the way back to Leung Jan. This is what Ip Man had access to and it's likely it came from the Fatshan schools.

---Look Spencer. I am simply going by logic and available evidence. The various Weng Chun lineages claim descent through Fung Siu Ching. They don't use a Luk Sao Chi Sao platform. When Leung Jan retired to Ku Lo village what he taught did not include a Luk Sao Chi Sao platform. I have studied Pin Sun Wing Chun and it does not have the Luk Sao Chi Sao platform. What footage I have seen from Chan Wah Shun lineage does not show the Luk Sao Chi Sao platform. So based on the evidence I have had available, it seems that the generation prior to Yip Man and Yuen Kay San did not do this kind of Chi Sao. If you have evidence to the contrary, then I'm open to seeing it!

So my query is, if the language existed before even Ip Man and YKS had ever met,

---What "language" are to talking about? Remember, you are the one that so objects to categorizing or labeling anything. So just what do these documents say?


For me, that sounds far more logical because again, like I have said, there were guys like Simon Lau and Wai Po Tang teaching in London in the 70s and 80s and they had a different platform than Ip Mans HK guys

--- If they were doing a different Chi Sao platform than Yip Man's guys, logic would seem to suggest to me that Lee Shing taught them this from the Wing Chun methods he studied apart from Yip Man. Perhaps they were doing the Chi Sao platform from Pin Sun?


---I'd also like to take this opportunity to post a redaction to something I wrote before. It has been pointed out to me by someone from that lineage, that YKS's brother, Yuen Chai Wan, did indeed teach the Luk Sao Chi Sao platform when he emigrated to Northern Viet Nam. So it is likely he took part in its development. Which makes sense given that he would have been training with his brother and with Yip Man prior to leaving China.

[kung fu fighter]

I have studied Pin Sun Wing Chun and it does not have the Luk Sao Chi Sao platform.

The fact is, there is no evidence that anyone was using the Luk Sao Chi Sao platform prior to Yip Man and Yuen Kay San.


Actually Keith this is incorrect. Yui Choi system uses Luk Sao and the rolling is even shown and is part of their Chum Kui Form. Yui Choi learned his Chum Kui from Ng Chung So. NGS's school was a central meeting and training place for all wing chun in Foshan in the 20's and 30's. Yui Kai told stories many times of watching his father along with Yip Man YKS Jui Chiu and Jui Wan training and exchanging at the school. It is much more likely based on the objective evidence that the rolling platform was an outgrown of the training that went on at NGS school. If not then the question to be ansered why is the rolling part of the Yui Choi Chun kui but not in the chum kui of others.

While there are many stories the road to the true history of wing chun is in the forms.

Actually Luk Sao Chi sao Platform is a variation of Pin Sun WCK's Dai Lim Tao two-man set. This leads me to believe it was part of leung jan's curriculam and therefore was not created by yip man and YKS.


[QUOTE=hunt1;1252650]

With the hunched over stances, I don't even see proper self centerline in this one... Pretty hard to have any fwd intent that way, let alone 'body structure' as I know it.

JP makes a good point.

I agree, In that PSWC chi sao clip, those guys have lousy body structure, so don't take that as an example of good PSWC people. But on the other hand they are doing the correct rolling cycle, which was the point why Keith posted that clip.

[LoneTiger108]

Actually Luk Sao Chi sao Platform is a variation of Pin Sun WCK's Dai Lim Tao two-man set. This leads me to believe it was part of leung jan's curriculam and therefore was not created by yip man and YKS.

That is a first for me to see online. Good stuff!

Forgive me for being blunt here, but if this is just the interaction of one of 12 maybe you can see what I have been trying to say?

Basically that Luksau (Looksau) has been there all along, with quite a few other platforms too.

[KPM]

Actually Luk Sao Chi sao Platform is a variation of Pin Sun WCK's Dai Lim Tao two-man set. This leads me to believe it was part of leung jan's curriculam and therefore was not created by yip man and YKS.

Uh, no. This is the Dai Lim Tao 2 man:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKjiOBtX_k4

So you might be able to say that the single sticking hands in Yip Man WCK came from this, but not the 2-arm rolling platform. This is a two-man set, not a free-form rolling platform.

[Jansingsang]

Football is a funny old game, pretty much a product for sale these days. Wing Chun is a Martial Art that was never supposed to be marketed and sold as a product. But I do understand your point.



So if you know this and have experienced what you talk of... show it!

Break it down in a clip or two and show the exact development you are talking about. It will become clearer for everyone if somebody can just do that. And the same can be asked of anyone from YKS family too, but as far as I have seen nobody has been able to share anything like I am asking. But please... be the first!



Er... well... yes it does.

Maybe this is because I am a student of one of his students? Maybe it is because I am loyal to just one Sifu? Maybe it's because I am simply nuts?

And yes, it is related to the thread because I was simply 'throwing it out there' that there was more people than YKS out there developing the best way to interact! 11 others directly related to be fair. And after all my Sigungs research and training, he chose to represent Ip Man because of what he had developed, or like you say, possibly learnt from his elders like YKS.



Ok I will throw something else into the mix... the programs I learnt included quite a few set currculums (including Ip Mans) written in Chinese. Curriculums I say, not Kuit or poems or such like. Curriculums.

One was of the interactive developments known to Wing Chun students, and two of them were Luksau and Chisau among others. As far as I know this was not made up information or language, it had existed in Ng Jung So's time and possibly been taught by Chan Wah Shun all the way back to Leung Jan. This is what Ip Man had access to and it's likely it came from the Fatshan schools.

So my query is, if the language existed before even Ip Man and YKS had ever met, then maybe all they done was attempt to figure out what these platforms were about? Thus developing what we think is new, but in fact only reinventing what was already there... Chisau and Luksau.

For me, that sounds far more logical because again, like I have said, there were guys like Simon Lau and teaching in London in the 70s and 80s and they had a different platform than Ip Mans HK guys that was more familiar to me when I trained. Both learnt from Fatshan and Vietnam too funnily enough, and both had to go through my Sigung and ask permission from Ip Man before they taught in the UK!

So when I see clips like the one posted, it only strengthens the case that the mainland doesn't know or has any interest in what was developed later by YKS, Ip Man or whoever!! They are all too keen to preserve and promote what they do now, and all repsect to them for that!

Spencer stop talking out your back crevice you do anything say anything to put the lee shing on some Big fat pedal stool you Tool ..You know fully well Simon lau was taught by lee shing ...Wai Po Tang was taught by Simon lau and to verify that you could see him on the way of the warrior smacking up some girl who got the better of him And the only interactive crap you learnt is that flag waving garbage.. Man I hate f%&%ing liars ..The primary reasons why Wcs moving so frigging slow in the 21st century

[hunt1]

The fact is, there is no evidence that anyone was using the Luk Sao Chi Sao platform prior to Yip Man and Yuen Kay San.


Actually Keith this is incorrect. Yui Choi system uses Luk Sao and the rolling is even shown and is part of their Chum Kui Form. Yui Choi learned his Chum Kui from Ng Chung So. NGS's school was a central meeting and training place for all wing chun in Foshan in the 20's and 30's. Yui Kai told stories many times of watching his father along with Yip Man YKS Jui Chiu and Jui Wan training and exchanging at the school. It is much more likely based on the objective evidence that the rolling platform was an outgrown of the training that went on at NGS school. If not then the question to be ansered why is the rolling part of the Yui Choi Chun kui but not in the chum kui of others.

While there are many stories the road to the true history of wing chun is in the forms.

[KPM]

Actually Keith this is incorrect. Yui Choi system uses Luk Sao and the rolling is even shown and is part of their Chum Kui Form.

I wasn't aware that Yui Choi used the Luk Sao platform. Thanks for that! But who were the big 3 in Wing Chun in Foshan?.....Yui Choi, Yip Man, and Yuen Kay San. So it would make sense that Yui Choi was in on any innovations in Chi Sao, since these guys all trained together and were peers.

But I don't understand what you mean by the Luk Sao Chi Sao rolling platform being part of the Chum Kiu form?

[LoneTiger108]

But I don't understand what you mean by the Luk Sao Chi Sao rolling platform being part of the Chum Kiu form?

I don't know if they have the same idea as I have, but Chum Kiu for me is when a student first starts to learn two handed interactions and within the form are some keys to rotations and body structures required.

[LoneTiger108]

Spencer stop talking out your back crevice you do anything say anything to put the lee shing on some Big fat pedal stool you Tool

There is no pedestal dude. Only those that are on one themselves see them!

..You know fully well Simon lau was taught by lee shing ...Wai Po Tang was taught by Simon lau

Wah! I didn't know that Of course Simon Lau learnt from Lee Shing when he came to the UK, but his Wing Chun was already set from his training in Fatshan, or so I heard?

Wai Po may have started there but he went on to learn from others including Yiu Kil.

And the only interactive crap you learnt is that flag waving garbage.. Man I hate f%&%ing liars ..The primary reasons why Wcs moving so frigging slow in the 21st century

Easy tiger! If you are looking for liars they aint at this end of the keyboard