Nice version of vinh xuan

[kung fu fighter]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_Qc2...71C0B72851D784

[Eric_H]

No centerline, no wing chun.

[KPM]

Looks a whole lot like the Chi Sao done in Pin Sun WCK!

[kung fu fighter]

No centerline, no wing chun.

Center line is but only one concept/principle in wing chun, there are many others. Don't be a slave to center line, flow is also important. and if you know what to look for there is a center line awareness in what they are doing, but not in the obvious way that most are used to.

Looks a whole lot like the Chi Sao done in Pin Sun WCK!

Yes i agree this chi sao platform is similar to the double circling hands chi sao cycle in many of the mainland wck linages including Pin sun wck.

[LFJ]

Center line is but only one concept/principle in wing chun, there are many others.

It is also but only the most central principle the rest of the system is based upon. Take that out and everything else ceases to function.

[kung fu fighter]

It is also but only the most central principle the rest of the system is based upon. Take that out and everything else ceases to function.

who said anything about taking it out? the problem is too many WCKpeople misunderstand what the center line principle is all about. As someone once said "don't look at the finger pointing at the moon" the finger pointing is just the tool.

[Eric_H]

if you know what to look for there is a center line awareness in what they are doing, but not in the obvious way that most are used to.

I know what I'm looking for, it's not present. Body structure doesn't lie.

[kung fu fighter]

I know what I'm looking for, it's not present. Body structure doesn't lie.

Body structure is one level, there are other higher levels

[Spiked]

I am so confused by all these labels.

[LoneTiger108]

Looks a whole lot like the Chi Sao done in Pin Sun WCK!

Wah! All these labels

Pin Sun Wing Chun as we all have seen through the years has a flavour of mainland interactive training, as does the Vietnamese clip here. Call it Chisau or whatever you like, it is a far stretch from the common Ip Man chisau we commonly see, and fwiw very few even do that justice.

2 arms against 2 arms has a set of variations which people here with basic experience should be able to share, and I would suggest if you don't know what I am talking about then you need to revisit your Sifu and ask some hard and fast questions... Ip Man revised this type of mainland interaction to get to where we were at in the 1960s and then after the boom of the 70s everything changed.

There is value to everything if you understand the objectives.

[KPM]

Wah! All these labels

---But labels are important! How would we know what someone else is talking about without being able to categorize or label it?

Pin Sun Wing Chun as we all have seen through the years has a flavour of mainland interactive training,

---Yes. Because it IS "mainland"!

Call it Chisau or whatever you like, it is a far stretch from the common Ip Man chisau we commonly see, and fwiw very few even do that justice.

---I invite anyone to go back and look at that clip again. The Chi Sao they are doing is not simply "Huen Chi Sao" circling wrists. It is more like the Pin Sun Chi Sao that uses a coiling action. In Pin Sun it is often described as "two snakes seeking an opening." If you watch closely you will see some Bong Sao's naturally resulting in the action. If you've done both this kind of Chi Sao and the Yip Man Luk Sao Chi Sao it is easy to see how the Yip Man/Yuen Kay San version evolved from this older rolling platform. This also supports the idea that the Luk Sao roll was developed by either Yuen Kay San or Yip Man and shared. Vietnamese Wing Chun comes from Yuen Kay San's brother. The brother learned from the same source as YKS, but likely didn't learn the Luk Sao roll because it doesn't show up in the lineage he established in Viet Nam. Yip Man WCK and Yuen Kay San WCK seem to be the only lineages with the Luk Sao rolling platform. When we see it in other lineages, its likely because they have picked it up fairly recently.


Ip Man revised this type of mainland interaction to get to where we were at in the 1960s and then after the boom of the 70s everything changed.

---The story told by Sum Nung was that Yuen Kay San was the one that came up with the Luk Sao rolling in association with Sum Nung himself and Yip Man. Hard to know one way or the other. But given that YKS was older and more senior than Yip Man.......

[LoneTiger108]

---But labels are important! How would we know what someone else is talking about without being able to categorize or label it?

Labels are for those that are buying products.

---I invite anyone to go back and look at that clip again. The Chi Sao they are doing is not simply "Huen Chi Sao" circling wrists. It is more like the Pin Sun Chi Sao that uses a coiling action. In Pin Sun it is often described as "two snakes seeking an opening." If you watch closely you will see some Bong Sao's naturally resulting in the action. If you've done both this kind of Chi Sao and the Yip Man Luk Sao Chi Sao it is easy to see how the Yip Man/Yuen Kay San version evolved from this older rolling platform. This also supports the idea that the Luk Sao roll was developed by either Yuen Kay San or Yip Man and shared. Vietnamese Wing Chun comes from Yuen Kay San's brother. The brother learned from the same source as YKS, but likely didn't learn the Luk Sao roll because it doesn't show up in the lineage he established in Viet Nam. Yip Man WCK and Yuen Kay San WCK seem to be the only lineages with the Luk Sao rolling platform. When we see it in other lineages, its likely because they have picked it up fairly recently.

Nice.

---The story told by Sum Nung was that Yuen Kay San was the one that came up with the Luk Sao rolling in association with Sum Nung himself and Yip Man. Hard to know one way or the other. But given that YKS was older and more senior than Yip Man.......

Seriously... you are still debating who came up with what? Rather than look a little more deeply and see that it was all there in the first place? I have heard these stories too and you know the only constant? Ip Man.

FWIW and FME There is more to Ip Mans interactive platforms than Luksau and Chisau. Like the LT guys, I have a few other terms for interactive training that all trace back to and through Ip Man himself, Ng Jung So and Chan Wah Shun. As most already know we also connect through Wong Wah Sam and Fung Sang too, but people prefer to promote areas and villages rather than the real life people behind all this knowledge. Maybe this is because all we have is lists of names with little evidence of their existence other than the list of names!

From what I have been told, there were very specific and serious reasons why Lee Shing baisi to Ip Man, and why that was rushed too. He had travelled throughout East Asia beforehand searching out the Masters. Nothing to do with teaching publically either, because in the 60's it was one single Wing Chun Pai.

His students however were not bound by any codes of conduct so basically done what they wanted after 1991, and some done what they wanted decades before that! All, however, have a different interactive platform than, say, WSL students, or Victor Kan students. Man, they even have different ways from eachother lol! But I find it very interesting that the platform is most similar to the Chisau of Simon Lau and Wai Po Tang! Both originating from mainland Wing Chun schools, and both very influential in the early UK Wing Chun scene.

So who created what exactly? It's all pure speculation IMHO

Just my five pence...

[LaRoux]

Looks a whole lot like the Chi Sao done in Pin Sun WCK!

And just like all chi sao, completely unrelated to anything having to do with full on application against a fully resisting opponent.

[YouKnowWho]

Here is a "double inward circles" used in grappling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bZY...ature=youtu.be

Whether it may work in the striking game or not, it has not been tested fully. It just proves that the strategy "leave the centerline open and defend it from the outside inward" is a general TCMA concept. It doesn't belong to any particular TCMA system.

[Grumblegeezer]

Here is a "double inward circles" used in grappling.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bZY...ature=youtu.be

Thanks for that interesting clip, John. But with those X-men "Cyclops" glasses, why not just blast him with your laser vision?

http://i.annihil.us/u/prod/marvel//u...clops_Head.jpg