Nice version of vinh xuan

[Hendrik]

Then I repeat again, please describe for us the physical acts of Luk Sao and Chi Sao according to the ancient descriptions so that we can know what you are talking about.

The kuit above has describe the first key of Luk sau .

[Eric_H]

Listen, I wouldn't even want to bring the guy up, but since you seem to be getting your misinformation from Robert Chu,

Why turn this into a Robert Chu-bashing post? I said Robert had a comment about YKS and Chi Sao. I didn't ask and he didn't have anything to say about HFY. So you are jumping to some pretty big conclusions. I came up with the question about Garret Gee and Chi Sao all on my own I assure you!

So you're basically repeating rumors Robert's been known to spread (on this very forum) in the past after admitting talking to him just a short time ago and you think I'm jumping to conclusions? Something smells like a rat there.

And in my exchanges with Spencer on this thread I went to lengths to point out that "Luk Sao Chi Sao" was simply a convention in terminology I was using to get across to people that I was talking about what YM & YSK lineages do and not the "Poon Sao" circling hand Chi Sao platform that some of the other lineages use.

So you're saying what you're talking about is one specific exercise that's in the Yip Man/YKS lineage and a sequence of bong and tan. Fair enough, why did you try and bring my lineage into it then?

Sure. Those may be refinements. But again, to make things as clear as possible....I am talking about the basic rolling Chi Sao platform used by YKS & YM lineages........one arm rolling from Bong to Tan while the other arm follows the partner's Bong & Tan with a Fook Sao. This basic rolling method with both arms is what I am seeing as developed by YKS and shared with YM and Yui Choi. So how did Garrett Gee come by it in his system?

Now you're just playing games, there's not a refinement when the underlying technology and training method/purpose is different. The basic assumptions of operation between HFY and Yip family WC are very far apart. Also, as I've already explained, we don't do anything called luk sao.

Because he was able to roll with you and you call it luk sao doesn't mean anything. That's like if I bridge with a Tai Chi guy and he starts saying my WC has to have incorporated push hands at some point. It's a bunch of bologna.

I personally touched hands with Garrett Gee briefly at the Friendship Seminar in Dayton. We rolled for a bit. He did the basic rolling platform that I am talking about......one arm Bong/Tan, the other arm Fook Sao. Are you saying that you don't do that????? And just as an aside....he kept his Bong and Tan motion rather high....much like they do in TWC!!!

Wow, the years old TWC rumor, smells like ratty Robert once again.

I've just stated this but I'll say it again: The HFY chi sao platform is able to work with any other WC chi sao platform, including your luk sao, it doesn't mean that we're doing the same thing.

[Hendrik]

Luk Sao is an application which involve unique strategy , momentum, force flow handling.

The kuit has specifically tell one how to applied the force under what dynamic condition.

One needs to develop the Jin path and Jin flow before one can play that properly. It is an inner gate direct compete for center line play certainly not a chasing hand art.

The kuit describe what happen at listening to Jin , receive Jin, and issue Jin, and how. But if one taking a different translation instead of the ancient one , one will not be able to see what it is .

Luk sau is a center line capture play where both party face square and compete for center line. It is an inner gate play. Poon sau is a different story. Luk Sao is it not a drill of hand technics at is core . It is a play of how not leaving the inner gate and force the opponent out in the micro way at contact.


轆手訣 the kuit of Luk Sao

敵柔我柔 opponent soft I am soft
敵剛我堵 opponent hard I will recieve and issue in the same time
拑陽落勁 clamping the yang I inject the yin force down to the ground

That is not an answer. What PHYSICAL TECHNIQUES are involved? How does your double helix Jin manifest in a physical way??

[Hendrik]

Keith, if you take a good look at the pin sun wck version of chi sao, your can clearly see it's a combination of luk sao and circling hands (sheung huen sao) put together in one drill. Therefore both chi sao platform existed way before yip man or YKS. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KpRjsFlL1Q

As I mentioned before, the luk sao platform is just a variation of pin sun dai lim tao two man set.

Navin,

1. I believe in credit is given to who the credit belongs. I do think YKS has evolved and develop great things.


But I think too many stories we need to verify, disregards of lineages.





2. Here are samples As in the next issue of new hero magazine the following kuit exist in 1890 note of snake crane Wck lineage. See for your self details document existed.


A. 黐手秘要（24 句） chi sau key ponts kuit (Total Twenty four verses)

『 來留去送 逢甩直衝 敵一移動 ....... Come accept return send it back, meeting disengage thrust in, at opponent move.....



B, 轆手訣 the kuit of Luk Sao

敵柔我柔 opponent soft I am soft
敵剛我堵 opponent hard I will recieve and issue in the same time
拑陽落勁 clamping the yang I inject the yin force down to the ground
子午要中 Your center line needs to align center.



There is no reason in 1890 people record this with the description just for hendrik. They don't prepare for Hendrik to argue to Keight in 2013. You can see here the Luk sau is started in the inner gate center line play. Very direct. No longer as in chi sau. It won't give an inch away. It response right the way. As for the chi sau is a different play.



3， to truely resolve these stuffs, one needs to verify and compare writing from different lineages . That is the reason one needs to study ancient Wck. Otherwise one don't know what is going on. Since every lineages have those stories which make it sounds as the only the true lineage or the sifu is the only true guy. In reality that is not the case. No one has it all, and nothing comes out from the thin air.

[KPM]

Keith, if you take a good look at the pin sun wck version of chi sao, your can clearly see it's a combination of luk sao and circling hands (sheung huen sao) put together in one drill. Therefore both chi sao platform existed way before yip man or YKS. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KpRjsFlL1Q

As I mentioned before, the luk sao platform is just a variation of pin sun dai lim tao two man set.

Navin, that is simply not true!

First, as I have already pointed out.....the DLT drill is ONE arm at a time and is a DRILL. It is not a rolling platform for free technique.

Second, I have trained in the Pin Sun version of Chi Sao, with Jim Roselando! If you look closely, the roll has a coiling/circling nature and the energy goes side to side. They circle COMPLETELY around each other's forearms very close to the wrist. In contrast, the YKS/YM roll is truly a "rolling" motion that goes more up and down and is centered closer to mid-forearm. The Bong/Tan hand STAYS on the inside of the partner's hand and the Fook hand STAYS on the outside of the partner's hand. There is a completely different energy and dynamic involved. Now granted, Jim does something much closer to a Bong Sao that you see others do in this rolling platform. For instance, just take a look again at the Vietnamese WCK clip that started this thread. But even in what Jim is doing, Bong Sao is not a prominent part of the roll as it is in the YKS/YM version.

Third, again as I have already stated, there is not a big jump from what Jim is doing to the YKS/YM version. It just seems that no one actually made that "jump" until YKS!! I guess we could argue about whether that means he truly "invented" it, or simply "adapted" what he already knew. But regardless, I don't see anything to contradict the idea that YKS was the "innovator" either way.

[KPM]

The kuit above has describe the first key of Luk sau .

You seem to be missing the point Hendrik. Please describe the PHYSICAL ACTIONS involved. What does Luk Sao look like, according to the ancient descriptions????

[KPM]

So you're basically repeating rumors Robert's been known to spread (on this very forum) in the past after admitting talking to him just a short time ago and you think I'm jumping to conclusions? Something smells like a rat there.

No rats involved, truly. If you wanted to go back and look, I think I probably asked that very question here myself years ago.



So you're saying what you're talking about is one specific exercise that's in the Yip Man/YKS lineage and a sequence of bong and tan. Fair enough, why did you try and bring my lineage into it then?

Because I've seen your lineage do the same rolling platform.



The basic assumptions of operation between HFY and Yip family WC are very far apart. Also, as I've already explained, we don't do anything called luk sao.

And I've explained that I'm not concerned about terminology. I asked before and you didn't answer, so I'll ask again and little more clearly. In HFY, do you use a basic Chi Sao rolling platform consisting of one arm rolling between Bong Sao and Tan Sao on the inside while the other arm follows the partner's Bong/Tan with a Fook Sao on the outside?

Wow, the years old TWC rumor, smells like ratty Robert once again.

I assure you that this is based upon my own observations and conclusions. Robert has nothing to do with it.

I've just stated this but I'll say it again: The HFY chi sao platform is able to work with any other WC chi sao platform, including your luk sao, it doesn't mean that we're doing the same thing.

Please see my re-stated question above!

[KPM]

Luk Sao is an application which involve unique strategy , momentum, force flow handling.

The kuit has specifically tell one how to applied the force under what dynamic condition.

One needs to develop the Jin path and Jin flow before one can play that properly. It is an inner gate direct compete for center line play certainly not a chasing hand art.

The kuit describe what happen at listening to Jin , receive Jin, and issue Jin, and how. But if one taking a different translation instead of the ancient one , one will not be able to see what it is .

Luk sau is a center line capture play where both party face square and compete for center line. It is an inner gate play. Poon sau is a different story. Luk Sao is it not a drill of hand technics at is core . It is a play of how not leaving the inner gate and force the opponent out in the micro way at contact.


轆手訣 the kuit of Luk Sao

敵柔我柔 opponent soft I am soft
敵剛我堵 opponent hard I will recieve and issue in the same time
拑陽落勁 clamping the yang I inject the yin force down to the ground

You STILL haven't answered by request. Please describe for us the PHYSICAL ACTIONS involved in Luk Sao and Poon Sao so that we can all see what you are talking about, have an idea what they look like, and know what the difference between them is.....according to the ancient descriptions. I have already done this (according to modern descriptions) for my understanding of Luk Sao and Poon Sao in my reply to Navin. I am trying to see what the difference is, but so far you have posted no descriptions at all, only Kuen Kuit!!!

[kung fu fighter]

Luk sau is a center line capture play where both party face square and compete for center line. It is an inner gate play. Poon sau is a different story. Luk Sao is it not a drill of hand technics at is core . It is a play of how not leaving the inner gate and force the opponent out in the micro way at contact.

so luk sao is an inner gate play, what's the story for Poon sau?

[Hendrik]

so luk sao is an inner gate play, what's the story for Poon sau?

Navin,

If you look at these kuit and description from 1890.



A. 黐手秘要（24 句） chi sau key ponts kuit (Total Twenty four verses)

『 來留去送 逢甩直衝 敵一移動 ....... Come accept return send it back, meeting disengage thrust in, at opponent move.....



B, 轆手訣 the kuit of Luk Sao

敵柔我柔 opponent soft I am soft
敵剛我堵 opponent hard I will recieve and issue in the same time
拑陽落勁 clamping the yang I inject the yin force down to the ground
子午要中 Your center line needs to align center.




The above chi sau kuit is describing the poon sau type of play, which can be both outer or inner door but mostly outer door play. Where one move. And not that high density target into the inner gate center line.


The Luk sau kuit is describing the inner door play. It has to response there at center line at that instant per contact. Not moving away but take on spot play.



So these two platforms exist in the writing in 1890 or the platform exist before yks was born in 1889.



As we here in this forum or even in this thread often say "this is not Wck because this is not facing facing center line. " that is because one taking the Luk sau type as Wck. But in fact in 1890 both existed in Wck.


So, by these writing there is no question Luk sau type chi sau platform and poon sau type chi sau platform existed before 1890.

As for how Yks or Ipman implement their version is a different story.

[Hendrik]

I let kuen kuit tell the story.
It is very clear based on the kuit as I have just told Navin above.

You STILL haven't answered by request. Please describe for us the PHYSICAL ACTIONS involved in Luk Sao and Poon Sao so that we can all see what you are talking about, have an idea what they look like, and know what the difference between them is.....according to the ancient descriptions. I have already done this (according to modern descriptions) for my understanding of Luk Sao and Poon Sao in my reply to Navin. I am trying to see what the difference is, but so far you have posted no descriptions at all, only Kuen Kuit!!!

[Eric_H]

And I've explained that I'm not concerned about terminology. I asked before and you didn't answer, so I'll ask again and little more clearly. In HFY, do you use a basic Chi Sao rolling platform consisting of one arm rolling between Bong Sao and Tan Sao on the inside while the other arm follows the partner's Bong/Tan with a Fook Sao on the outside?

Our single handed Chi Sao contains transitions from 3 different types of Bong Sao, some go to Taan sao or Taan Kiu (different tools), some don't. It depends if we fall into Chi Sao or Kiu Sao or free hand sparring type of leverage based on the contact.

We don't follow the bong/taan exchange with a fook the way I learned in Moy Yat's lineage, but often use a fook to neutralize a taan sao.

So again, HFY has the technology to play with the Luk Sao platform, but that's not what we're doing. Is that clear enough?

[kung fu fighter]

Navin, that is simply not true!

First, as I have already pointed out.....the DLT drill is ONE arm at a time and is a DRILL. It is not a rolling platform for free technique.

Keith I keep repeating myself, Luk sao platform is a variation of PSWC dai lim tao, where both partners hook up both arms at the same time doing bong, tan, and fook as in the luk sao of yip man and ykswc. You can't comment on something you've never seen, in fact all the two-man sets of PSWC have more than one variations of how they are performed. I would bet that you only learnt one version of each of the two-man sets from Jim.

Second, I have trained in the Pin Sun version of Chi Sao, with Jim Roselando! If you look closely, the roll has a coiling/circling nature and the energy goes side to side. They circle COMPLETELY around each other's forearms very close to the wrist. In contrast, the YKS/YM roll is truly a "rolling" motion that goes more up and down and is centered closer to mid-forearm. The Bong/Tan hand STAYS on the inside of the partner's hand and the Fook hand STAYS on the outside of the partner's hand. There is a completely different energy and dynamic involved. Now granted, Jim does something much closer to a Bong Sao that you see others do in this rolling platform. For instance, just take a look again at the Vietnamese WCK clip that started this thread. But even in what Jim is doing, Bong Sao is not a prominent part of the roll as it is in the YKS/YM version.

Keith just to break it down for you

PSWC poon sao=cycling of bong, tan, fuk, huen, and a light under grab in transition

luk sao= cycling of bong, tan, fook (some linages pair fook with upper gan or kei jang)

double circling hands (sheung huen sao) =huen and a light under grab in transition

when you combine the techniques of luk sao with the tecniques and cycling of double circling hands, you end up doing the poon sao chi sao platform of PSWC.

Keith the PSWC Poon sao chi sao platform is not different, they just merged or re-packaged the two different chi sao platforms into one. Just my opinion, but I personally believe the PSWC poon sao is a much more efficient training method. But the other 2 chi sao platform are still valid in case one needs to develop the specific skill that those 2 platforms focus on.

[Hendrik]

Navin,


IMHO, here is the systemic picture


1.Wck philosophy , strategy, concept = capture center



2. Platform to realized Wck strategy

A, Poon sau = out side gate play mainly = out gate in, in gate out play.

B, Luk sau = high density inner gate play = inner gate center line min moving play.



3. Implementation derive from platforms: yks, Ipman, scwc, pin San......etc
Different technics , hands shape.....etc can be used. Many variation.


If you keeping look at technics you get into seeing threes not the forest.

Keith I keep repeating myself, Luk sao platform is a variation of PSWC dai lim tao, where both partners hook up both arms at the same time doing bong, tan, and fook as in the luk sao of yip man and ykswc. You can't comment on something you've never seen, in fact all the two-man sets of PSWC have more than one variations of how they are performed. I would bet that you only learnt one version of each of the two-man sets from Jim.



Keith just to break it down for you

PSWC poon sao=cycling of bong, tan, fuk, huen, and a light under grab in transition

luk sao= cycling of bong, tan, fook (some linages pair fook with upper gan or kei jang)

double circling hands (sheung huen sao) =huen and a light under grab in transition

when you combine the techniques of luk sao with the tecniques and cycling of double circling hands, you end up doing the poon sao chi sao platform of PSWC.

Keith the PSWC Poon sao chi sao platform is not different, they just merged or re-packaged the two different chi sao platforms into one. Just my opinion, but I personally believe the PSWC poon sao is a much more efficient training method. But the other 2 chi sao platform are still valid in case one needs to develop the specific skill that those 2 platforms focus on.

[anerlich]

And just as an aside....he kept his Bong and Tan motion rather high....much like they do in TWC!!!

I was fortunate enough to spend a couple of hours with duende, an HFY guy from this forum, a few years back, when he visited Sydney.

Anyone who thinks there is more than a superficial resemblance between TWC and HFY knows very little about either.

The whole Robert Chu / HFY *****fest came about because of an ego clash between Robert Chu and Benny Meng, neither of whom could be described as anything other than amateur historians seeking undeserved academic legitimacy, same as Hendrik. And I'm being charitable in giving them that much.