Nice version of vinh xuan

[hunt1]

[QUOTE=JPinAZ;1252644]With the hunched over stances, I don't even see proper self centerline in this one... Pretty hard to have any fwd intent that way, let alone 'body structure' as I know it.

JP makes a good point.

[kung fu fighter]

I have studied Pin Sun Wing Chun and it does not have the Luk Sao Chi Sao platform.

The fact is, there is no evidence that anyone was using the Luk Sao Chi Sao platform prior to Yip Man and Yuen Kay San.


Actually Keith this is incorrect. Yui Choi system uses Luk Sao and the rolling is even shown and is part of their Chum Kui Form. Yui Choi learned his Chum Kui from Ng Chung So. NGS's school was a central meeting and training place for all wing chun in Foshan in the 20's and 30's. Yui Kai told stories many times of watching his father along with Yip Man YKS Jui Chiu and Jui Wan training and exchanging at the school. It is much more likely based on the objective evidence that the rolling platform was an outgrown of the training that went on at NGS school. If not then the question to be ansered why is the rolling part of the Yui Choi Chun kui but not in the chum kui of others.

While there are many stories the road to the true history of wing chun is in the forms.

Actually Luk Sao Chi sao Platform is a variation of Pin Sun WCK's Dai Lim Tao two-man set. This leads me to believe it was part of leung jan's curriculam and therefore was not created by yip man and YKS.


[QUOTE=hunt1;1252650]

With the hunched over stances, I don't even see proper self centerline in this one... Pretty hard to have any fwd intent that way, let alone 'body structure' as I know it.

JP makes a good point.

I agree, In that PSWC chi sao clip, those guys have lousy body structure, so don't take that as an example of good PSWC people. But on the other hand they are doing the correct rolling cycle, which was the point why Keith posted that clip.

[LoneTiger108]

Actually Luk Sao Chi sao Platform is a variation of Pin Sun WCK's Dai Lim Tao two-man set. This leads me to believe it was part of leung jan's curriculam and therefore was not created by yip man and YKS.

That is a first for me to see online. Good stuff!

Forgive me for being blunt here, but if this is just the interaction of one of 12 maybe you can see what I have been trying to say?

Basically that Luksau (Looksau) has been there all along, with quite a few other platforms too.

[YouKnowWho]

With the hunched over stances, I don't even see proper self centerline in this one... Pretty hard to have any fwd intent that way, let alone 'body structure' as I know it.

As Eric stated early on: no centerline, no wing chun.

IMO, the "hunched over stances - hollow chest" is the correct posture used in combat. The straight back stance is not good at all.

[KPM]

Actually Luk Sao Chi sao Platform is a variation of Pin Sun WCK's Dai Lim Tao two-man set. This leads me to believe it was part of leung jan's curriculam and therefore was not created by yip man and YKS.

Uh, no. This is the Dai Lim Tao 2 man:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKjiOBtX_k4

So you might be able to say that the single sticking hands in Yip Man WCK came from this, but not the 2-arm rolling platform. This is a two-man set, not a free-form rolling platform.

[KPM]

Actually Keith this is incorrect. Yui Choi system uses Luk Sao and the rolling is even shown and is part of their Chum Kui Form.

I wasn't aware that Yui Choi used the Luk Sao platform. Thanks for that! But who were the big 3 in Wing Chun in Foshan?.....Yui Choi, Yip Man, and Yuen Kay San. So it would make sense that Yui Choi was in on any innovations in Chi Sao, since these guys all trained together and were peers.

But I don't understand what you mean by the Luk Sao Chi Sao rolling platform being part of the Chum Kiu form?

[KPM]

With the hunched over stances, I don't even see proper self centerline in this one... Pretty hard to have any fwd intent that way, let alone 'body structure' as I know it.

As Eric stated early on: no centerline, no wing chun.

First....no forward intent? The forward lean, if anything, exaggerates forward intent! If he was leaning back on his heels, then I could understand someone saying it is "pretty hard to have any fwd intent."

Second...obviously its hard to know someone's body structure without seeing or feeling it tested. Nothing in this clip really put it to the test. But I have felt Jim's structure, and it is solid!

Third....why do you think there is no centerline here?

[LoneTiger108]

Spencer stop talking out your back crevice you do anything say anything to put the lee shing on some Big fat pedal stool you Tool

There is no pedestal dude. Only those that are on one themselves see them!

..You know fully well Simon lau was taught by lee shing ...Wai Po Tang was taught by Simon lau

Wah! I didn't know that Of course Simon Lau learnt from Lee Shing when he came to the UK, but his Wing Chun was already set from his training in Fatshan, or so I heard?

Wai Po may have started there but he went on to learn from others including Yiu Kil.

And the only interactive crap you learnt is that flag waving garbage.. Man I hate f%&%ing liars ..The primary reasons why Wcs moving so frigging slow in the 21st century

Easy tiger! If you are looking for liars they aint at this end of the keyboard

[LoneTiger108]

But I don't understand what you mean by the Luk Sao Chi Sao rolling platform being part of the Chum Kiu form?

I don't know if they have the same idea as I have, but Chum Kiu for me is when a student first starts to learn two handed interactions and within the form are some keys to rotations and body structures required.

[JPinAZ]

IMO, the "hunched over stances - hollow chest" is the correct posture used in combat. The straight back stance is not good at all.

That's cool, and if I remember correctly, you don't really practice WC in your fighting method, so to you, the hunched over stance might make perfect sense

But not all fighting arts are the same.. Wing Chun principles, structures and body methods don't work very well with that type of stance.

[JPinAZ]

First....no forward intent? The forward lean, if anything, exaggerates forward intent! If he was leaning back on his heels, then I could understand someone saying it is "pretty hard to have any fwd intent."

Completely dissagree. It's near impossible to have WC's idea of fwd intent thru your whole structure (from the ground up) in this type of stance. Which is why I also said 'body structure' in my last reply.

And I never said anything about leaning back on your heels. But since you brought it up, While I don't advocate that method either for the same reason - you give up neutrality - I've seen and experienced people making the lean-back work better in regards to fwd intent thru the bridge than anyone who was using a fwd, hunched over one.

Second...obviously its hard to know someone's body structure without seeing or feeling it tested. Nothing in this clip really put it to the test. But I have felt Jim's structure, and it is solid!

I am only going by what is presented in the video to form my opinion, as apparetnly some others here have as well. Sorry if my opinion bothers you though, I mean't no harm

Third....why do you think there is no centerline here?

I said self centerline in my comments to Jim's clip, and even bolded the word self. But, I say that simply because the spine is not straight and the weight is not evenly balanced. With a hunched over stance, you can not have the things I mentioned.

As far as shared - or A-to-B centerline - the way they cross center once they get into the dance-like 'twisting' portions of this drill, I'd say it's not here either. Once you are crossing center, you can't have fwd intent and are giving up A-to-B centerline, regardless of the stance used - at least from my undertanding of basic WC principles.

[YouKnowWho]

That's cool, and if I remember correctly, you don't really practice WC in your fighting method, so to you, the hunched over stance might make perfect sense

But not all fighting arts are the same.. Wing Chun principles, structures and body methods don't work very well with that type of stance.

You should only use your structure when you attack. Before your attack, your body should be bent so you can straight it when needed. You have to compress before you can release. You have to pull your bow before you can shot your arrow out. This concept has nothing to do with "style".

Can you see anybody has body structure in this picture?

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-6XdzrqO5aH...ady-to-run.jpg

Now you can see structure in this picture.

https://www.google.com/search?q=runn...F%3B1991%3B772

In that WC clip, both are playing. none of them has committed on anything. It's too early to apply their structure IMO.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_Qc...71C0B72851D784

[kung fu fighter]

IMO, the "hunched over stances - hollow chest" is the correct posture used in combat. The straight back stance is not good at all.

WCK avocate relaxing the chest so that it sinks with gravity, not "hunched over stances - hollow chest" or bending forward from the hip joint.

Actually Luk Sao Chi sao Platform is a variation of Pin Sun WCK's Dai Lim Tao two-man set. This leads me to believe it was part of leung jan's curriculam and therefore was not created by yip man and YKS.

Uh, no. This is the Dai Lim Tao 2 man:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKjiOBtX_k4

So you might be able to say that the single sticking hands in Yip Man WCK came from this, but not the 2-arm rolling platform. This is a two-man set, not a free-form rolling platform.

That's the standard way of doing PSWC Dai Lim Tao two-man set, however there is another variation which is virtually identical to Luk sao utilizing Bong, Tan, fook like in yip man wck. You probably haven't seen this variation. Evan in the standard Dai lim tao drill that you posted above, you can clearly see the bong tan cycle being done in the drill, as well as the fook and jut cycle being done on the opposite hand. when you put everything together you end up doing the second variation of the dai lim tao drill which is luk sao. The problem is people are trying to sell their brand of wing chun, therfore they only mention the differences and not the similarities among the various WCK linages to deceive people. A cult like mentality if you ask me.

[KPM]

Completely dissagree. It's near impossible to have WC's idea of fwd intent thru your whole structure (from the ground up) in this type of stance. Which is why I also said 'body structure' in my last reply.

---I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. Weight near the balls of the feet with a bit of a forward lean certainly has forward intent to me. How well it can be used in the specific position in the clip may be another factor. I do have to admit that Jim doesn't appear to be applying any forward pressure in this video. That is one of the differences between this rolling platform and the Luk Sao Chi Sao platform. With Luk Sao the arms are going up & down with forward pressure or intent. In this "Huen Sao" platform the arms are essentially going side to side and circling with very little forward pressure. This is even more pronounced in the original video on this thread.


And I never said anything about leaning back on your heels. But since you brought it up, While I don't advocate that method either for the same reason - you give up neutrality

---I agree. But is "neutrality" part of your idea of "forward intent"?

I am only going by what is presented in the video to form my opinion, as apparetnly some others here have as well. Sorry if my opinion bothers you though, I mean't no harm

---No problem. Things aren't always very clear in a video.


I said self centerline in my comments to Jim's clip, and even bolded the word self. But, I say that simply because the spine is not straight and the weight is not evenly balanced. With a hunched over stance, you can not have the things I mentioned.

---Ok. I'll give you that! But realize that the Southern Mantis and the Bak Mei guys also use the centerline concept and they have an even more pronounced "hunch."

As far as shared - or A-to-B centerline - the way they cross center once they get into the dance-like 'twisting' portions of this drill, I'd say it's not here either. Once you are crossing center, you can't have fwd intent and are giving up A-to-B centerline, regardless of the stance used - at least from my undertanding of basic WC principles.

---Well, I think I have to give that one as well! I don't like the "cross center" thing either.

[KPM]

That's the standard way of doing PSWC Dai Lim Tao two-man set, however there is another variation which is virtually identical to Luk sao utilizing Bong, Tan, fook like in yip man wck. You probably haven't seen this variation.

---So this variation uses both arms at once? And how do you know that this variation did not result from someone in more recent times seeing the Luk Sao Chi Sao roll and saying "gee, we can do that from the Dai Lim Tao Drill!"???? In the various versions of the Ku Lo village art I have seen, I have never seen the Luk Sao Chi Sao rolling platform.

Evan in the standard Dai lim tao drill that you posted above, you can clearly see the bong tan cycle being done in the drill, as well as the fook and jut cycle being done on the opposite hand. when you put everything together you end up doing the second variation of the dai lim tao drill which is luk sao.

---Again. The standard drill is a DRILL. It is not being done as a free-flow rolling platform. Both arms are not being used at once. Like I pointed out to Spencer, it wasn't necessarily a big step to go to the Luk Sao Chi Sao rolling platform. It would have been a very natural adaptation or innovation. It just doesn't seem that anyone was doing it in the generation prior to Yip Man and Yuen Kay San. At least I haven't seen any convincing evidence of that yet. And I was told by what I consider to be a very reliable source that Sum Nun himself said that Yuen Kay San developed Luk Sao and shared it with Yip Man. So until I see something convincing that contradicts that, I will go with that information.

The problem is people are trying to sell their brand of wing chun, therfore they only mention the differences and not the similarities among the various WCK linages to deceive people. A cult like mentality if you ask me.

---I'm not trying to sell anything. And I don't have anything even close to a "cult-like mentality" Navin. All I've done is present the evidence I have seen and the logic that connects it. Show me footage of Grandmaster Fung Chun doing the Luk Sao Chi Sao rolling platform with a student prior to his death and I'll be ready to consider changing my conclusions!