Wing chun 1850 to 1890

[Hendrik]

Disregards of how different people like to speculate the Wck history or technics.

We know today, two objective documents exist in wing chun kuen which clearly describe Wck . These are the snake crane wing chun secret note and the yik kam wing chun siu lim tau instruction note.

The snake crane wing chun secret note is written in 1890. The content is the full elements of wing chun kuen from sets, to weapon, to chi sau, to Luk sau...etc. From these one can see clearly what is Wck in 1890. The time before Ipman and YKs was born. One can see the Wck system and details as it.

The yik kam wing chun siu Lin tau instruction note is a teaching of 1850 and before. It goes into in depth and details of internal art practice and description of the root source of the core elements such as power type and Qi development type .

With the snake crane wing chun secret note, we know solidly what happen in pre 1890. With the echo between this note and yik kam wing chun siu Lin tau document . We know they are real deal. Also we can see how yik kam document cover the internal depth of the Wck where snake crane wing chun note left off. And snake crane wing chun note cover the specific application view where the yik kam siu lin tau document didn't cover.

Thus, with this two documents, they verify each other's and show us both the big pictures and details of wing chun kuen from 1850 to 1890. It tells the stories beyond Leung jan into Leung LAN Kwai which is Leung Jan sigung era. Thus, we do have a sight on what is going on and how is the evolution.

We learn from these two notes which is from isolated red boat lineages for past 160 years, the root of Wck is indeed emei 12 zhuang and white crane from fujian. The shao Lin mention in the legend of Wck history is a pseudoname of the Hung Mun in 1850 era not real shaolin temple.

So, if one is looking for the facts on ancient Wck. These two notes have described them. It is a view one can see how the art evolve since 1850 to today, what change , what missing. What get add in. It is this simple.


I personally respect different stories from different people. But when it comes to Wck technology and history which fit to a facture Chinese history , time line, and Chinese martial art DNA. The two notes have tell a complete story as it. I let you know here because the content of these two notes are now starting to release in public in Asia.

[KPM]

So, if one is looking for the facts on ancient Wck. These two notes have described them. It is a view one can see how the art evolve since 1850 to today, what change , what missing. What get add in. It is this simple.

I wish it was that simple! But we know that these documents do not contain actual descriptions of physical technique. They contain guidelines, concepts, and principles. There are multiple ways that these can be expressed physically, even within a strict Wing Chun context. Our recent exchange about Luk Sao is a good example. The Kuen Kuit talk about the principles of Luk Sao but do not describe actual physical technique. So while Luk Sao existed in 1850, it was not necessarily the physical rolling Chi Sao action that YKS & YM lineages refer to as "Luk Sao." And as far as what might have been "added in", if it fits with the concepts in the Kuen Kuit, is it really an "add in"?

I can easily see two different lineages doing completely different things that both still fit with some of the concepts in these documents. So which one would be right? Would both be right?

But I do look forward to seeing what comes out of this as you do more English translations. Thanks for bringing this out Hendrik!

[GlennR]

Disregards of how different people like to speculate the Wck history or technics.

So let me get this right, anyone who has an opinion or theory on either WC history or technique should be disregarded........... except you??

You, and your friends/colleagues are the only people that know "the truth"??

Really? That right is it?

We know today, two objective documents exist in wing chun kuen which clearly describe Wck . These are the snake crane wing chun secret note and the yik kam wing chun siu lim tau instruction note.

The snake crane wing chun secret note is written in 1890. The content is the full elements of wing chun kuen from sets, to weapon, to chi sau, to Luk sau...etc. From these one can see clearly what is Wck in 1890. The time before Ipman and YKs was born. One can see the Wck system and details as it.

Who has verified its age?

The yik kam wing chun siu Lin tau instruction note is a teaching of 1850 and before. It goes into in depth and details of internal art practice and description of the root source of the core elements such as power type and Qi development type .

With the snake crane wing chun secret note, we know solidly what happen in pre 1890. With the echo between this note and yik kam wing chun siu Lin tau document . We know they are real deal. Also we can see how yik kam document cover the internal depth of the Wck where snake crane wing chun note left off. And snake crane wing chun note cover the specific application view where the yik kam siu lin tau document didn't cover.

Thus, with this two documents, they verify each other's and show us both the big pictures and details of wing chun kuen from 1850 to 1890. It tells the stories beyond Leung jan into Leung LAN Kwai which is Leung Jan sigung era. Thus, we do have a sight on what is going on and how is the evolution.

We learn from these two notes which is from isolated red boat lineages for past 160 years, the root of Wck is indeed emei 12 zhuang and white crane from fujian. The shao Lin mention in the legend of Wck history is a pseudoname of the Hung Mun in 1850 era not real shaolin temple.

So, if one is looking for the facts on ancient Wck. These two notes have described them. It is a view one can see how the art evolve since 1850 to today, what change , what missing. What get add in. It is this simple.

Before "announcing" your startlingly convenient "find", get the document verified by an independent source.
Until then you have nothing

I personally respect different stories from different people.

No you dont.

But when it comes to Wck technology and history which fit to a facture Chinese history , time line, and Chinese martial art DNA. The two notes have tell a complete story as it. I let you know here because the content of these two notes are now starting to release in public in Asia.

That would be in a magazine wouldnt it?

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1254533]Disregards of how different people like to speculate the Wck history or technics.

To Hendrik- Neither Yik Kam kuen kuit nor the -snake crane clearly enriches what good wing chun groups already have.

Neither you nor others on this list can generalize about all of wing chun.
Thus, not every wing chun family- clamps their knees while they are being taught.


But you are not alone in over-generalizing. Some others on this list cherry pick in their generalizations.

[EternalSpring]

as GlennR asked, how do we know the documents are from the years you claim they are from? Have they been scientifically dated somehow? If not, there is good reason to doubt the authenticity of the notes being from the 1800's. It certainly wouldn't be the first time someone in the past wrote a document claiming that it was older than it really is.

[Hendrik]

For those who read Chinese, more then welcome and appreciate for volumter to translate it.



1850年，紅船易金小練頭歌訣對二字拑羊馬的描述是 「平肩襠」。四十年後，1890年，蛇鶴詠春門秘記載的是「二趾拑羊馬」。而 詠春之母峨眉十二庄所描述的是＂「平肩襠」之平字要領，是把腳尖微向里扣，兩腳站成平行線，與肩同寛＂。＂ 腳尖微向里扣＂與「二腳＂趾＂拑」是一致的。因此這描述与易金系和蛇鹤系所記載是一致的。雖然這兩系的文獻 相差了四十年或更久。

接著，蛇鶴詠春門秘中的轆手訣又對二趾拑羊馬的運用說 ：『 敵柔我柔 敵剛我堵 拑陽落勁 子午要中 ... 』。這「拑陽落勁」就是＂陰力下地落地，以造成陽力從地起＂才能落實「敵剛我堵 」的接勁與發勁。

從以上的文獻，我們可以見到那個時代的二字拑羊馬的面目。與運作架構，勁路，勁流。而「腳尖微向里扣」是並 沒有拑住七關節（足，踝，膝，胯，肩，肘，腕）中的任何一關節。如此之活才能「敵剛我堵 拑陽落勁 」。所以二字拑羊馬本來面目如此。

反觀今天的一些二字拑羊馬，又拑膝，又拑踝，把下盤的足，踝，膝拑住，導致陰力不能下地，陽力不能上起，又 加上提肛，更致在下盤力運僵死的情況下撐在空中。剩餘的只有上盤可用，又怎能落實「敵剛我堵 拑陽落勁 」呢？這種二字拑羊，馬不合古代文獻，也不合物理牛頓力學。另外在身理上也是造成氣血不通與關節超負荷。所 以造成：腳麻，膝痛，下腰痛等病症。

似乎在近八十年大多數二字拑羊馬，走上了拑住關節去固定某種身架，用體力去推撞，而不再是「敵 柔我柔 敵剛我堵 拑陽落勁 」或「上下飛花勁脈��。吞吐如虹發力罡。一任自然氣脈長。」



從這裡可以看出詠春拳1900 之後是走向南拳方向的。勁法與氣脈也隨著消失。
也就是說在阮奇山与葉問這一代發生的演變。



也就是這種演變。所以以下故事中梁碧那樣的武功不再。

"据说叶问初次见到梁碧和时并不知道眼前的老人家就是自己的师伯，当叶问自报家门是梁赞徒孙时，梁碧和并未 表露身份，相反他有心想试一下这个师侄的武功达到何种程度。叶问年轻气盛，经不住这位老人家的一激，旋即脱 下长衫，与梁碧和动起手来。可是当叶问与梁碧和甫一接手，便大为惊讶，老人家的手似乎柔软无比，叶问发出的 力好像进入无底洞般被吞噬得无影无踪，想抽身亦无法自主，跟着便被梁碧和不费吹灰之力击飞！叶问吃惊不小， 暗想自己得到陈华顺的真传，炼功毫无懈怠，如今被这老人家一接一送，自己便已落败，连对方用何种手法也没看 清，这是何等骇人的功夫！叶问要求再试，梁碧和欣然答应。叶问施展所学，而梁碧和从容应对，在瞬间又接连击 倒叶问两次。自此梁碧和表明身份，叶问才知道输在自己师伯手上。"

[Hendrik]

I got the following send to me today. Here I reply it in public.
------------------

On Oct 30, 2013, at 7:56 AM, wrote:

Snake & Crane WC questions coming in....

People are realizing they have modern stuff in it....

You may want to ask Wayne to address it IMO. If not, it will throw a big monkey wrench in your research as people will doubt they are pure so they may begin to doubt your research. Your basing your latest work off the Yik & SC sets/kuit/etc (1850 & 1890 WC) but there is no doubt the below is a legit question.



See below:

***

Somethings wrong.

That is YIPs Jong Set. I watched it.

They added it in .They probably did not get much jong handed to them.They got the note book and the forms and I don’t know what else, some san sao and some poor chisao ..


---------------------------



1. There are modern and ancient stuffs. As every lineage evolve. There are different people within the lineage present different things in YouTube snake crane wing chun lineage is no different.

2. I am not to defend any one lineage. And those who like to get the proper infor needs to get it from proper channel.


3. I got what I want from the ancient writing. Anyone can believe what they like. I am not in the defending or make which lineage the best lineage business. For none of the lineage is the best. But every one has a piece of ancient signatures.



4. my goal is to see the face of the ancient Wck technology as it. Not to defende any history or any lineage. History is just a stepping stone to get to see what is there.


5. Btw, in the secrete note of snake crane Wck , there are wooden dummy set record in details, not as the following in the above email.

They probably did not get much jong handed to them.They got the note book and the forms and I don’t know what else, some san sao and some poor chisao ..

I am a snake crane wing chuner now. I read the note book. So, my advise is make sure one see the real thing before speculate.




Here on, I am wcner, not yik kam wing chun, snake crane wing chun, but wcner .

[KPM]

3. I got what I want from the ancient writing. Anyone can believe what they like. I am not in the defending or make which lineage the best lineage business. For none of the lineage is the best. But every one has a piece of ancient signatures.

But it sure sounds to me like you need to verify that these truly are "ancient" writings! Anyone that can add in modern stuff and claim it as original is not above claiming their writings are original as well.

[TopCrusader]

"the snake crane wing chun secret note and the yik kam wing chun siu lim tau instruction note."

Is it just text or picture/drawing instruction as well? Would love to see these myself

[GlennR]

3. I got what I want from the ancient writing. Anyone can believe what they like. I am not in the defending or make which lineage the best lineage business. For none of the lineage is the best. But every one has a piece of ancient signatures.

But it sure sounds to me like you need to verify that these truly are "ancient" writings! Anyone that can add in modern stuff and claim it as original is not above claiming their writings are original as well.

Dont hold your breath waiting for any real verification

[bawang]

Disregards of how different people like to speculate the Wck history or technics.

We know today, two objective documents exist in wing chun kuen which clearly describe Wck . These are the snake crane wing chun secret note and the yik kam wing chun siu lim tau instruction note.

The snake crane wing chun secret note is written in 1890. The content is the full elements of wing chun kuen from sets, to weapon, to chi sau, to Luk sau...etc. From these one can see clearly what is Wck in 1890. The time before Ipman and YKs was born. One can see the Wck system and details as it.

The yik kam wing chun siu Lin tau instruction note is a teaching of 1850 and before. It goes into in depth and details of internal art practice and description of the root source of the core elements such as power type and Qi development type .

With the snake crane wing chun secret note, we know solidly what happen in pre 1890. With the echo between this note and yik kam wing chun siu Lin tau document . We know they are real deal. Also we can see how yik kam document cover the internal depth of the Wck where snake crane wing chun note left off. And snake crane wing chun note cover the specific application view where the yik kam siu lin tau document didn't cover.

Thus, with this two documents, they verify each other's and show us both the big pictures and details of wing chun kuen from 1850 to 1890. It tells the stories beyond Leung jan into Leung LAN Kwai which is Leung Jan sigung era. Thus, we do have a sight on what is going on and how is the evolution.

We learn from these two notes which is from isolated red boat lineages for past 160 years, the root of Wck is indeed emei 12 zhuang and white crane from fujian. The shao Lin mention in the legend of Wck history is a pseudoname of the Hung Mun in 1850 era not real shaolin temple.

So, if one is looking for the facts on ancient Wck. These two notes have described them. It is a view one can see how the art evolve since 1850 to today, what change , what missing. What get add in. It is this simple.


I personally respect different stories from different people. But when it comes to Wck technology and history which fit to a facture Chinese history , time line, and Chinese martial art DNA. The two notes have tell a complete story as it. I let you know here because the content of these two notes are now starting to release in public in Asia.

The can sets, to weapon, to weapon, two objection note.

The the crane crane can siu lim the Wck sau, to speculate time before Ipman see to weapon, today, today, today, two objective document people like crane wing chun see today, two objective documents exist is was it.
Disregards of wing chun secret note the snake content people lim the contents of how to weapon, to chun see time before Ipman sets, to speculate and YKs written what is Wck system and the yik kam wing chi sau...etc. From see conten

Luk sau, to Luk sau...etc. From see time before. It goes internal art practice of instruction note is Wck sau...etc. From sets, to weapon, to weapon, to instruction note is as it.

The root source one crane clearly what is Wck sau...etc. From the snake conternal art practice of these of 1890. The Wck sau...etc. From see conten from the yik kam wing of 1890. The snake can and Qi description of the yik kam wing of these one can see core. It goes in details a teachi sau...etc. From the time before Ipm

Asia So, if on and Chinese these marting. What missince 1850 today, which fit content Wck. The facts one is looking today, when it. I let you know herent personally release two notes from different of thistories from differe notes have stories from different Wck. These two notes today, when it. I lete stories them. It is looking. What missing. What missince 1850 today, when it. I let you know story what missing. What get add in Asia So, if on and history as it today, what change , time linese in

AN thung The ja s, s pis s e wetheris e de the w ow d bowis Jaier's han d ochtey win s, bo wa is Les Thuts theng hthung Kwero d s d picuth LAN ang s s omean kundong t 1850. Kwean s s LAN han d Itowerach thongus, t s wererantwotothotant eustis igung f a.
ping Kwh jater's s big 1850. s heran th aithey tholls hongung o thofravesichtwhtoig Thesig t

[GlennR]

The can sets, to weapon, to weapon, two objection note.

The the crane crane can siu lim the Wck sau, to speculate time before Ipman see to weapon, today, today, today, two objective document people like crane wing chun see today, two objective documents exist is was it.
Disregards of wing chun secret note the snake content people lim the contents of how to weapon, to chun see time before Ipman sets, to speculate and YKs written what is Wck system and the yik kam wing chi sau...etc. From see conten

Luk sau, to Luk sau...etc. From see time before. It goes internal art practice of instruction note is Wck sau...etc. From sets, to weapon, to weapon, to instruction note is as it.

The root source one crane clearly what is Wck sau...etc. From the snake conternal art practice of these of 1890. The Wck sau...etc. From see conten from the yik kam wing of 1890. The snake can and Qi description of the yik kam wing of these one can see core. It goes in details a teachi sau...etc. From the time before Ipm

Asia So, if on and Chinese these marting. What missince 1850 today, which fit content Wck. The facts one is looking today, when it. I let you know herent personally release two notes from different of thistories from differe notes have stories from different Wck. These two notes today, when it. I lete stories them. It is looking. What missing. What missince 1850 today, when it. I let you know story what missing. What get add in Asia So, if on and history as it today, what change , time linese in

AN thung The ja s, s pis s e wetheris e de the w ow d bowis Jaier's han d ochtey win s, bo wa is Les Thuts theng hthung Kwero d s d picuth LAN ang s s omean kundong t 1850. Kwean s s LAN han d Itowerach thongus, t s wererantwotothotant eustis igung f a.
ping Kwh jater's s big 1850. s heran th aithey tholls hongung o thofravesichtwhtoig Thesig t

That clears things up!

[KPM]

That clears things up!

Yeah, he put a lot of effort into nothing. Must have a lot of free time on his hands!

[bawang]

Yeah, he put a lot of effort into nothing. Must have a lot of free time on his hands!

i am just using hendriks logic.

[Grumblegeezer]

Yeah, he put a lot of effort into nothing...

Well, I got as much out of that as out of most of Hendrik's posts. More if you count the laugh.