Takedowns and throws in your system?

[omarthefish]

Spiked, I grapple all the time, but I have never made a video of it. Because someone didn't make a video 20 years ago, does that mean it never happened???

Spanky is apparently too young to remember that there were no camera phones back in the 90's.

[Spiked]

Spanky is apparently too young to remember that there were no camera phones back in the 90's.

And yet Dave Ross had the technology to film this nonsense. Genius.

In fact those are the only lama videos they have up from that era. HMMM. I wonder why?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5Z8Gpq-RUY

[Kellen Bassette]

Maybe you do not understand what is happening here. Ross routinely craps on tcma and most notably for the unrealistic reliance on forms. Most sensible people on this forum know that practicing forms does not produce fighters. Ross ranted and raved about this for a long time. Then he goes and says he can point to in his forms where those throws he demoed came from which is hypocritical. Then he goes on to say that he did interviews with a television station showing them techniques that have come out of forms. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. Make fun of a guy for practicing forms when training for a fight? Fine. Claim you trained "hard core" with an old chinese guy and brag every opportunity you get about your trained fighters...and then talk about techniques in forms? Stupidity.

Well in a lot of ways, forms do show many of the major techniques in a system. I see nothing wrong with showing an application from a form and saying, "This is what it represents, but to make it work you need to practice it live with a resisting partner."

If your saying, "The moves are in the form, so I already know them;" well then you deserved to be crapped on; but we all know that's not what he was saying.

[GoldenBrain]

Nothing wrong with liking forms. Thinking you can somehow "pull" applications out of forms is a fools game and one of the reasons the "forms trainers" have been getting their butts handed to them by the people who have trained in the the more effective application based systems for more than 150 years.

Cool. But, consider this. Chain a bunch of the applications you practice together and call it a form. If you practiced the movements of your newly created form then do you not think you would understand what application you were doing?

Now, after you practice your newly created form, hit the mat and get serious about the applications.

Wholla, you are now able to do forms and practice applications realistically.

[Spiked]

Cool. But, consider this. Chain a bunch of the applications you practice together and call it a form. If you practiced the movements of your newly created form then do you not think you would understand what application you were doing?

Now, after you practice your newly created form, hit the mat and get serious about the applications.

Wholla, you are now able to do forms and practice applications realistically.

Applications for realz are spontaneous. No two applications work in two situations. Why hold onto it? There is no reason to do so.

A random situation happens and you need to figure out what to do in that moment. Instead of stringing techniques it is better to have someone attack you somehow and then figure it out.

[GoldenBrain]

Maybe you do not understand what is happening here. Ross routinely craps on tcma and most notably for the unrealistic reliance on forms. Most sensible people on this forum know that practicing forms does not produce fighters. Ross ranted and raved about this for a long time. Then he goes and says he can point to in his forms where those throws he demoed came from which is hypocritical. Then he goes on to say that he did interviews with a television station showing them techniques that have come out of forms. You cannot have your cake and eat it too. Make fun of a guy for practicing forms when training for a fight? Fine. Claim you trained "hard core" with an old chinese guy and brag every opportunity you get about your trained fighters...and then talk about techniques in forms? Stupidity.

Bro, I get what's going on here. I promise you, I'm not dull. What you fail to understand is most of us don't need you as our champion. David is entitled to his opinion. You're also entitled to yours however you come off as a troll so that type of behavior is unwanted. If he is mean to somebody then let them handle it. Who are you to proclaim yourself our hero and champion?

[LaRoux]

If your saying, "The moves are in the form, so I already know them;" well then you deserved to be crapped on; but we all know that's not what he was saying.

Essentially, that's what he was saying.

[LaRoux]

Cool. But, consider this. Chain a bunch of the applications you practice together and call it a form. If you practiced the movements of your newly created form then do you not think you would understand what application you were doing?

Now, after you practice your newly created form, hit the mat and get serious about the applications.

Wholla, you are now able to do forms and practice applications realistically.

If you are already practicing them in realistic manners, you wouldn't need to somehow "find" them in the form and it wouldn't even matter if they were there or not.

[LaRoux]

Hiding applications within a form or dance is a tradition in martial arts that goes back hundreds of years. There have been many periods throughout human history where people were killed for practicing martial arts so the applications were hidden in order to pass them along to younger generations. Forms were practiced in the open, and the applications shown in private. Hence the term closed door practice.

Once you hide something and cease to practice it in a realistic manner, it's pretty much finished as far as anything other than being a dance.

[GoldenBrain]

Applications for realz are spontaneous. No two applications work in two situations. Why hold onto it? There is no reason to do so.

A random situation happens and you need to figure out what to do in that moment.

Where do you hear me say not to practice applications in a realistic manner? I have trained hard, fought hard, practiced my applications in a very realistic manner and been tested to the limit of my abilities. No worries here about me being able to use the applications I practice.

Many people that practice TCMA or other traditional martial arts generally speak in a more humble way and are not trying to convince people to train in a way that suits them. Sure, many traditionalists have had their asses handed to them in competition but guess what Einstein, so have people who have only practiced modern MMA.

[lkfmdc]

I know this will be buried in the much as soon as I post it, but....

Spanky is apparently too young to remember that there were no camera phones back in the 90's.

LOL, exactly

Despite protests to the contrary, we are clearly dealing with a Juvenile here

For the record (and for the sane to consider) I spent 16 years with CTS and there is probably less than 15 MINUTES of film of him... and most of it actually filmed by others from the "Living Treasure" movie, his public demos around the country and several interviews...

Ironically, the footage that IS up my hing-dai, being old kung fu people, debated and anguished over putting up for years... but in retrospect probably correctly but only because it is pearl before swine

[Kellen Bassette]

Applications for realz are spontaneous. No two applications work in two situations. Why hold onto it? There is no reason to do so.

A random situation happens and you need to figure out what to do in that moment. Instead of stringing techniques it is better to have someone attack you somehow and then figure it out.

If you just go straight to someone attacking you, you will be unable to develop good technique. This is why we drill. Do you think a boxer learns to slip/counter with uppercut, just by jumping in the ring? How long would it take him to get it down? How good would he be at it? How much better would he be if he drilled that application 1000 times while trying to make it work in sparring?

Applications don't work all the time but you can certainly set up the same technique multiple times. Do you think no one has ever ducked under a punch and scored double legs more than once?

[GoldenBrain]

Once you hide something and cease to practice it in a realistic manner, it's pretty much finished as far as anything other than being a dance.

Again, like I told the volleyballer, I have never stated people should practice applications in a non realistic way. Forms are just one of many facets of traditional martial arts. If a practitioner is not also testing applications in a realistic manner then they are completely missing the point of learning how to fight. But, guess what, that's also okay. Many people who practice martial arts don't have any interest in fighting. They want to get in shape and practice something neat and fun. Who cares if everybody who goes into a dojo, kwoon, academy, gym...etc., and even understands how to fight. Let it go man...

[LaRoux]

For the record (and for the sane to consider) I spent 16 years with CTS and there is probably less than 15 MINUTES of film of him... and most of it actually filmed by others from the "Living Treasure" movie, his public demos around the country and several interviews...

Ironically, the footage that IS up my hing-dai, being old kung fu people, debated and anguished over putting up for years... but in retrospect probably correctly but only because it is pearl before swine

No one is saying anything about the footage of him. The footage is of you. If you really were doing realistic training, there would also be footage of that instead of simply dancing around doing forms.

[Spiked]

Bro, I get what's going on here. I promise you, I'm not dull. What you fail to understand is most of us don't need you as our champion. David is entitled to his opinion. You're also entitled to yours however you come off as a troll so that type of behavior is unwanted. If he is mean to somebody then let them handle it. Who are you to proclaim yourself our hero and champion?

I am not your hero. YOu are a nobody like me. David finds out something about people whether it is pictures or what not and then he uses it to defame them. I am just dishing out what he clearly cannot handle since he has me on ignore now. I do not care about this forum or about kung fu. Could not care less.