Ancient Sanda

[Kellen Bassette]

Some conversation in the Shaolin forum about sanda existing, (or not) in old Gong Fu, has derailed the dead horse beating that was going on. I thought maybe we could discuss the topic here....

From Shemmati....

but Sanda is an ancient art! and it also looks very much the same as what many modern Sanda fighters do. closed guards, standing stances, etc. there are famous Luohan 36, 108, and 360 Sanda combat techniques in the ancient curriculums.

From Miqi....

This is a really important, tertiary sub-text to this discussion. The great yiquan master Yao ZongXun said that the real, true CMA of the past was much closer to muay thai than to forms practice of any type.

Myself....

Sanda, as a training method or competition is likely thousands of years old. Sanda as Shaolin techniques is hundreds of years old. Sanda practiced as its own method in a structured curriculum has been in existence longer than Muay Thai has been in the boxing ring.

Sanda wasn't invented by the communists in the '70's. They just standardized a rule set and the clothing; and have been changing it ever since.

Counter points by LFJ....

There is no ancient "art" of sanda. It is a generic term used in many traditional styles for sparring or free fight training. But the techniques, strategies, etc. each art uses aren't the same as modern sport sanda, nor the same between different traditional styles. That is something quite different. Luohan sanda or such has nothing to do with modern sport sanda, except that they share the broad term.

I think this is a good discussion....any thoughts on the subject?

[mickey]

Greetings,

The counterpoint established by LFJ is correct.

Fighting is fighting.


Additionally, if you go back a few hundred years you probably would seeing a different kind of play, one where weapons, like the spear, were played.



mickey

[Kellen Bassette]

Fighting is fighting.

Which is exactly why I believe concepts and methods were the same centuries ago...(minus whatever minor, necessary adjustments are made for the gear, rules, ring,)

[mickey]

Greetings Kellen Bassette,

Yes, fighting is fighting.

But how did it look? What we have presently is nothing more than civilian combatives. Field combatives required weapons. So you would something along the lines of friendly spearplay, archery competitions, strength competitions, and wrestling. No right minded king would appreciate having his top warriors killed in friendly competition. And this would not be open to civilians as you see it today.

mickey

[lkfmdc]

First, as frightening as this is, in this case I would probably agree with miqi.... when Chinese martial art was used for fighting "in the old day" it had less variation, was a smaller curriculum and was more direct... only thing I would suggest is that it would have looked like the old Muay Thai of the 1920's and not the modern ring version... once you create a venue to test a method (what you guys call "sport") it evolves

San Da, Da Lei Tai, Sanshou, Pak Gihk, etc there have always been terms in TCMA for fighting and application... but what we today think of as sanda/sanshou is not some ancient Shaolin art. It comes directly from the modern military experiment

[Kellen Bassette]

San Da, Da Lei Tai, Sanshou, Pak Gihk, etc there have always been terms in TCMA for fighting and application... but what we today think of as sanda/sanshou is not some ancient Shaolin art. It comes directly from the modern military experiment

Modern Chinese military experiment with sanda began in the 1920's. Muay Thai adopting western rules began in the '30's, about the same time as the founding of the oldest Karate schools. Just for some perspective on the age of sanda as a curriculum.

[lkfmdc]

Modern Chinese military experiment with sanda began in the 1920's. Muay Thai adopting western rules began in the '30's, about the same time as the founding of the oldest Karate schools. Just for some perspective on the age of sanda as a curriculum.

Nope, Muay Thai was in the ring in the 1920's
Modern Sanshou / San Da started in 1925

There is a remarkably intersting comparison between San Da vs Kung fu and old THai arts vs Modern Muay Thai

[William123]

Modern Chinese military experiment with sanda began in the 1920's. Muay Thai adopting western rules began in the '30's, about the same time as the founding of the oldest Karate schools. Just for some perspective on the age of sanda as a curriculum.

Hi,
To add to the original discussion, Sanda is a more recent term to describe free fighting, unlike Sanshou which is much older. Professor Ma Mingda has a good article on this. Also scholar Lin Boyuan demonstrates that the term Sanda appeared in official publications after the reds took over, if my memory is correct sometime in the 1960s.

Combat sports like western boxing were banned in China in 1959 and the last traditional martial arts competition in China took place in 1955 or so. It took several years before some of this practices were allowed under the guidelines of the Sports Department (boxing was allowed in the 1980s).

Regarding the statement of a standardized Sanshou (not Sanda) program in the 1920s at the Whampoa Military Academy, it is not accurate. At the Academy there was a H2H combat program based on a traditional Chinese martial art, in this case Xingyiquan. The program included the five elements, linking form and a two person set. The actions from the 5 elements were applied to empty hand, dagger, rifle-bayonet and western type saber fighting.

Other traditional systems such as Lien Bu Quan were used for commando training, Qing Nian Quan for basic training, pici etc. However it appears the Guoshu Guan did try to create a standarized set of techniques/rules to be used in the leitai, but at the time of the first National Examination, those who fought did so using the skills learnt from their repsective martial arts style. And here lies the difference between what was taught to military units during the republican period vs. the PLA.

At some point the PLA started to develop their own training methods based on traditional and maybe modern methods of training, one of the old routines (1960s?) differs from the routines taught nowadays. The PLA teaches some units and civilian students the Junti Quan routines of which there are 4, the Wu Jing has their own set of empty hand and weapons routines such the dagger (with applications), riot police also have their own routines with baton, baton-shield, there is also bayonet fighting etc. In short, the PLA’s training methods do not come from a specific martial art as was the case during the republican period and the term Sanda was first used after the comunist take over.

[MarathonTmatt]

Interesting points. Especially the Muay Thai comparison.
Kellen- (or anyone)- do you think the old CMA was closer to Muay Thai? northern eagle claw grab in longfist can be like a muay thai clinch (maybe applied differently in theory, but looks the same). Also a lot of basics I learned from the old longfist style are like kickboxing techniques (jab, reverse, hook, uppercut, kicking, combos, etc.) Maybe the respective governments promoted the arts in different directions (performance/ health vs. sport fighting/kickboxing) furthering whatever divide already existed?

[lkfmdc]

Interesting points. Especially the Muay Thai comparison.

What people call "sport" and cast negative shadow upon is really "alive training"... when you make something alive it gets better, not worse

northern eagle claw

The original "eagle claw" as in the so called 108 locks of General Ngok Fei was not a flashy northern system. It was originally refeered to as "elephant stepping" ie it was a direct, forward moving and aggressive system with close quarters application

In the Shum Leung line there was unearthed an old film (8 mm maybe?) of a class from mainland before the move to HK, it looks more like a Judo or stand up Jujitsu class than a flashy kick oriented northern style

[Kellen Bassette]

Interesting points. Especially the Muay Thai comparison.
Kellen- (or anyone)- do you think the old CMA was closer to Muay Thai? northern eagle claw grab in longfist can be like a muay thai clinch (maybe applied differently in theory, but looks the same). Also a lot of basics I learned from the old longfist style are like kickboxing techniques (jab, reverse, hook, uppercut, kicking, combos, etc.) Maybe the respective governments promoted the arts in different directions (performance/ health vs. sport fighting/kickboxing) furthering whatever divide already existed?

Forms and performance have been around for centuries, (performance aspects also exist in ancient MT.) I think the oldest Gong Fu, however, was the development of specific gongs...basically training certain skills to mastery. I think the fighting was more stripped down, more mastery of the fundamentals...so yes, I think this would look closer to Muay Thai, (or Muay Boran, as Ross noted,) than to say the flamboyant theater we think of as Kung Fu today....

[GeneChing]

(minus whatever minor, necessary adjustments are made for the gear, rules, ring,)

However, I wouldn't consider gear, rules and ring minor. The improvement in sparring gear has allowed us to do a lot more than before with a greater degree of safety. Also advances in medicine are a major factor - just imagine what most of the pro MMA fighters might look like using pre-WWI medical methods. The rules are incredibly important and something that a lot of armchair martial artists totally overlook. These define the sport and any athlete or coach worth their salt knows how to play into them. And of course, the ring is a huge factor. Even Sunzi talked about the terrain. It's a completely different environment when dealing with a leitai vs. a cage vs. ropes & turnbuckles. But all that being said, fighting probably hasn't changed that much as human bodies haven't changed that much (we'll overlook performance enhancers by filing that in with medical advancements ), so the core is the same, just the terms might have changed.

[lkfmdc]

I'm inclined to agree with lkfmdc for the most part here

I won't tell anyone if you won't

However, I wouldn't consider gear, rules and ring minor. The improvement in sparring gear has allowed us to do a lot more than before with a greater degree of safety. Also advances in medicine are a major factor - just imagine what most of the pro MMA fighters might look like using pre-WWI medical methods. The rules are incredibly important and something that a lot of armchair martial artists totally overlook. These define the sport and any athlete or coach worth their salt knows how to play into them. And of course, the ring is a huge factor. Even Sunzi talked about the terrain. It's a completely different environment when dealing with a leitai vs. a cage vs. ropes & turnbuckles. But all that being said, fighting probably hasn't changed that much as human bodies haven't changed that much (we'll overlook performance enhancers by filing that in with medical advancements ), so the core is the same, just the terms might have changed.

fantastic post Gene, right on the money

[Kellen Bassette]

However, I wouldn't consider gear, rules and ring minor. The improvement in sparring gear has allowed us to do a lot more than before with a greater degree of safety. Also advances in medicine are a major factor - just imagine what most of the pro MMA fighters might look like using pre-WWI medical methods. The rules are incredibly important and something that a lot of armchair martial artists totally overlook. These define the sport and any athlete or coach worth their salt knows how to play into them. And of course, the ring is a huge factor. Even Sunzi talked about the terrain. It's a completely different environment when dealing with a leitai vs. a cage vs. ropes & turnbuckles.

This is all true; and playing to the rules is a very important element of sport fighting. I down played it because of the people who claim they cannot test their deadliez skillz in a sport format. I think that attitude is a cop out.

But all that being said, fighting probably hasn't changed that much as human bodies haven't changed that much (we'll overlook performance enhancers by filing that in with medical advancements ), so the core is the same, just the terms might have changed.

This being, the main point of my statement....

[GeneChing]

I down played it because of the people who claim they cannot test their deadliez skillz in a sport format. I think that attitude is a cop out.

There is a place for those who don't compete in contemporary martial arts. For example, I am a big supporter of Tai Chi as therapy and for the elderly. My mom takes it and she's never going to compete, never going to use it in a fight, but it keeps her healthy and happy and that's just fantastic. So competition isn't the 'be all, end all' for martial arts. However, I agree with you, Kellen - the ol' too deadliez argument is reactionary. And sport combat is awesome, in every form, when taken to its highest level. I even love top level wushu taolu. But then, I love rhythmic gymnastics. It's all about skillz. And competition is one of the greatest arenas to showcase skillz. It's honest. You have to play by the rules.

I won't tell anyone if you won't

I'm getting so tired of you telling me this.