"We've reached the end of antibiotics"

[SoCo KungFu]

I say both have their advantages, western medicine relies heavily on prescriptions and surgeries both of which have a tendency to fail and be very costly. Tcm doesn't use these but relies on old style medicines and bodywork. Now I would probably use western medicine for diabetes or something serious but for say a sprain, I would try to avoid using pills etc. I don't like taking toxic prescriptions but that's just me. You can always use both in conjunction most usually anyway also.

1) No, that's incorrect. Western med functions quite heavily on diet, exercise and the like. Here's the problem, what are you going to do as a medical professional if you have a patient "walking" into your office grossly out of shape and exhibiting absolutely zero will to do the things that will actually correct their situation? You can tell people to exercise and eat right until you're blue in the face, but you can't make them do it. So you give them the info and in the mean time control what you can through chemistry.

2) Chemistry is chemistry. There is nothing different in TCM chemistry vs western chemistry. Except western chemistry is verified to work on some level where as much of what is in TCM has not. Its all about relative dosage. The perfect example of this food vs medicine stuff is resveratrol. Yeah, its in food. And yeah, it has effects on treating cancer. No cover up conspiracies, no attempts by the evil pharm industry to keep it suppressed. Perfectly public knowledge. Its also perfectly useless. Why? Because to get the dosage required to actually do anything meaningful, you'd have to drink about 120 glasses of wine every single day. Concentration. The issue is, yeah, when you make things in the required molarity, it's toxic. What's more important at that point? Side effects or dying of cancer? No chemical, at therapeutic levels, is without toxic consequences. Think of it this way. How much vitamin c would you get from a single orange? How many oranges can you actually eat? Do you think you could get the same amount as you would by drinking a glass of juice? Or better yet, taking a vitamin pill? What are the side effects of those? That's a lot of acid in a glass. You can only get so much from food. At some point, we have to give nature a boost.

I'd venture to say TCM fails far more often than western procedures. Far far more often. But to say that western medicine doesn't approach things holistically is insidiously inaccurate. Its market slandering by the alt med industry. Western doctors most definitely attempt to address the underlying life style issues. The problem is most people don't give two ****s about making those efforts.

[Raipizo]

Never heard of western medicine going holistic, unless you go to a specialty clinic. A lot more people are starting to take better care of their diets I think. Vitamins are a little different than prescriptions. Just saying I'd rather not take prescription pills. And the thing is doctors want you coming back so why have you lose weight and avoid diabetes when I can get you a pill. Some aren't like that but many I am sure are. But that's my opinion.

[SoCo KungFu]

Never heard of western medicine going holistic, unless you go to a specialty clinic. A lot more people are starting to take better care of their diets I think. Vitamins are a little different than prescriptions. Just saying I'd rather not take prescription pills.

Holistic: relating to or concerned with complete systems rather than with individual parts

It is patently false to say that western medicine does not consider the whole. It's BS spewed from alt med proponents trying to push their product. In fact, by the above definition, I'd say western medicine is more "holistic" than TCM, because western medicine is built off a model that actually utilizes the internal chemistry of a body. It actually considers the effects of a drug from the largest possible scale (that being entire communities in some cases, like vaccines) to the smallest (an individual enzyme), and any and all interactions with anything else a person may have going on. There's a reason why you have to list all those allergies and life habits when you fill out your medical history. TCM doesn't even come close to being truly holistic.

Vitamins are no different than a prescription medication. Its simply something deemed less toxic by a governing body based on chemical reactivity. In both cases you're putting some chemical compound in your body. A vitamin can be quite toxic. Have someone with high ambient blood iron to take a multivitamin and see how long they last before violent vomiting ensues.

And the thing is doctors want you coming back so why have you lose weight and avoid diabetes when I can get you a pill. Some aren't like that but many I am sure are. But that's my opinion.

You got proof? I'm so sick of hearing this horseshit. Its really funny how many people suck up this nonsense. Then you look at the source. There's a reason I keep saying the term alt med industry. You're pushing marketing propaganda. Demonize western med, prey on those patients most vulnerable, the ones that technology has failed because medicine isn't perfect. Tell them its not their fault, they were led astray by the evil doctors and pharm. Then give them some BS snake oil cure. Alkaline diet, sugar pills, chi healing. You name it. Profit.

We live in a capitalist world. If you think for one second that alt med isn't in search of green, that its on some moral high ground as an industry that is somehow superior to standardized medical practices, then you're naive. But only one of these bodies is pounded with USME. There's a reason medical ethics is a part of every prospective med student interview process, every curriculum, every practice. Your integrity is assessed from the moment you have your first interview. Does that mean everyone is a paragon of moral integrity? Of course not. But given the ratio, I'd say they do a pretty good job of weeding out the con artists and the morally bankrupt. At least better than alt med.

Never mind how asinine of a claim that is. Doctors want you coming back so they keep you just, "not sick?" What sense does that make in a country where you have the choice to find a different doctor, or take matters into your own hands? Doctors do all they can, because getting you better, is what brings a patient back. Do you take your car to the same mechanic that trashed your engine during the last oil change?

This mess is downright offensive.

[Raipizo]

I will just continue going about my own way.

[Scott R. Brown]

I will just continue going about my.

If "going one's own way" involves wandering around aimlessly in search of an original thought, one may want to reconsider their direction.

Folk medicine was around for thousands of years and TCM is just that, folk medicine. I am not saying some of it doesn't work, however folk medicine had thousands of years to come up with vaccines, antibiotics, brain surgery, arthroscopic surgery, heart, liver, cornea and kidney transplants, etc. They didn't. It took modern scientific techniques and pharmaceutical companies.

If you are in a car wreck, get a mrsa infection or need a heart transplant, or breast implants you will be glad for western medicine.

[GoldenBrain]

breast implants

Hehe, you said breast. Okay, sorry, that was juvenile but I just couldn't help myself.


Back to serious... What I am taking away from this thread of almost 2,000 views and my inability to find the information I'm looking for online is that there is no TCM treatment for major internal infections or minor ones for that matter.

For the record, I didn't create this thread to troll TCM but rather to learn about alternative treatments on the off chance that we actually are running out of antibiotics. At this point I am of the opinion that this story about us running out of antibiotics has been sensationalized but that doesn't mean that I will not continue my search. I like the idea of natural therapies that I have the power to grow or harvest for myself. Antibiotics are good and I will take them when needed but it's not something I can grow in my greenhouse so the search continues.

Also, thanks for the replies so far. I have enjoyed the discussions both on and off topic.

[Syn7]

Dunno if you guys saw this.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/05/sc...eem.html?_r=1&

[Scott R. Brown]

Dunno if you guys saw this.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/05/sc...eem.html?_r=1&

Yes I read that. A number of years ago, I had a subscription to a company that did verification studies on supplements, so I have been aware of the fraud for 10 years or so. "Nature Made" vitamins and supplements always scored the highest in all of their studies so I quit my membership and just resolved to get as many of may supplements from "Nature Made" as I could. Although I get my Vitamin D from "Carlson", and I'll probably get my next batch of fish oil from them too.

[GoldenBrain]

Dunno if you guys saw this.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/05/sc...eem.html?_r=1&

Thanks for that! I knew that fraud was a problem but I didn't think it was at that level. Fortunately our family is able to get pretty much everything we need from our foods but for those who can't this could be a real problem.

[Raipizo]

If "going one's own way" involves wandering around aimlessly in search of an original thought, one may want to reconsider their direction.

Folk medicine was around for thousands of years and TCM is just that, folk medicine. I am not saying some of it doesn't work, however folk medicine had thousands of years to come up with vaccines, antibiotics, brain surgery, arthroscopic surgery, heart, liver, cornea and kidney transplants, etc. They didn't. It took modern scientific techniques and pharmaceutical companies.

If you are in a car wreck, get a mrsa infection or need a heart transplant, or breast implants you will be glad for western medicine.

Didn't say it was my original thought. Or say western medicine totally failed or something I just don't religiously go there to stay healthy. And yes hehe breasts.

[SoCo KungFu]

Dunno if you guys saw this.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/11/05/sc...eem.html?_r=1&

Yeah, I've seen that. That's the double edged sword when it comes to herbal supplements. They're cheap and easily accessible because supplements aren't under FDA oversight. But that also means there's a ton of crap on the market. This ALSO applies to TCM, because all of this stuff is considered a supplement. Because of this, for the life of me I can't understand why TCM practitioners are so hard on wanting their stuff to be considered "medicine." It would mean that over half the stuff they use would likely no longer be accessible.

[Syn7]

Yeah. It's one of those things that I had already heard elsewhere. From what I understand, it used to be a lot worse. So... there is that. I'm usually pretty weary of fads. It's an interesting read. Alotta things you are inclined to believe but don't have any real evidence to show, this is one of those things for me. Kinda like when Snowden released documents and everyone is freaking out, many of us were like "yeah, and? The new news is where?". But it's cool to see the herbal argument is starting to be scrutinized more by the average guy who may buy into whatever is popular. I see it a ton with food around where I live. The stuff people circulate is basically plucked from thin air. Sometimes they are right, sometimes they aren't, but the people spouting it haven't got a clue either way. They believe what they want to believe because they want to believe. It is what it is, I guess. I'm just getting tired of anecdotal evidence being paraded as law.

As for TCM, that's the rub. You aren't taken as seriously as a medicine man if you can't call yourself that, but in order to do so you are increasingly subject to standards that are not set within your organization(s). They say they are misunderstood, regulators say they are vague, elusive and sloppy. I'm glad it's not my job to deal with any of that. No fun. I like machines, at least when they are temperamental you can just crack em open and fix/change them. I have all the patience in the world to fix a complex mechanical/electrical problem, but with people... not so much.

[Raipizo]

Off topic but GB you said you got a ninja blender right? Which version, debating between nutribullet and ninja :P but can't find a video with the full kitchen system version.

[GoldenBrain]

Off topic but GB you said you got a ninja blender right? Which version, debating between nutribullet and ninja :P but can't find a video with the full kitchen system version.

No worries ever about going off topic in my threads. At some point they always get back on track.

We bought the Ultima model at Target. They have a 30 dollar gift card that you get at checkout so we figured it was a decent deal. Here's a link… http://www.target.com/p/ninja-ultima...=ninja+blender

I give it high marks. So far we have made all kinds of green and fruit smoothies so I can tell you it handles kale, carrots, nuts, and other fruit without having to cut them up into bits and there's no tamping or stirring to get things mixed up in the blender. It will turn seeds and nuts into liquid and it even handles pineapple cores which has tons of nutrients. We've also made several kinds of soups and almond butter. It works great!

[Raipizo]

I think I might even get a vitamix, refurbished for around $300.