Kung Fu and fighting

[lkfmdc]

Here are some "ring fights" from Hong Kong featuring people form TCMA background

Dai Sing Pek Gwa 1983

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qm5YPpVnM6c

Kung Fu movie actor who also kickboxed, I would guess late 70's??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHksx50Mtik

There are a lot of things we can say about these clips, like
1. Wow, kung fu guys fighting
2. "kickboxing rules" without real knees, elbows, clinch or even throws
3. but definitely NOt fake fights... these are real

My perspective, you can improve the performances here, but it is at least fighting, it is an excellent start

But from my perspective TCMA has not improved from here, they have gone in opposite direction....

Fighting used to be "the norm"... but not any more

[YouKnowWho]

The TCMA tries to use health, self-cultivation, inner peace, and performance as excuse to avoid combat.

I have never heard any boxer or wrestler ever talk about "self-cultivation". Why?

[lkfmdc]

The TCMA tries to use health, self-cultivation, inner peace, and performance as excuse to avoid combat.

I have never heard any boxer or wrestler ever talk about "self-cultivation". Why?

"self cultivation" and Taoist philosophy has been around a long time in Chinese martial art...

by now, most evidence tells us the "boxers" in the Boxer Rebellion were more religious sect than real martial artists, martial arts was just their "con"

But this "con" grew and grew and grew... big question is WHY?

[MightyB]

"self cultivation" and Taoist philosophy has been around a long time in Chinese martial art...

by now, most evidence tells us the "boxers" in the Boxer Rebellion were more religious sect than real martial artists, martial arts was just their "con"

But this "con" grew and grew and grew... big question is WHY?

What is to avoid extinction?

I'll take The Rapist for $200 Alex

[lkfmdc]

What is to avoid extinction?

I don't necessarily agree ... many arts escaped extinction by going in OPPOSITE direction, ie they became better at fighting!!!!

[yeshe]

"Fighting used to be "the norm"... but not any more"
`This is why the out look is not good.TCMA has lost the culture of fighting.
We have all the drills,the skills,the conditioning,the forms with all the techniques inside them,encyclopedias worth of power generation theory and combat strategy,yet something falls short putting it all together.
Not enough time is spent hitting and getting hit. I my TCMA training I think I must have crescent kicked my own hand thousands of times more than ever drilling it on a person.

[lkfmdc]

"Fighting used to be "the norm"... but not any more"
`This is why the out look is not good.TCMA has lost the culture of fighting.
We have all the drills,the skills,the conditioning,the forms with all the techniques inside them,encyclopedias worth of power generation theory and combat strategy,yet something falls short putting it all together.
Not enough time is spent hitting and getting hit. I my TCMA training I think I must have crescent kicked my own hand thousands of times more than ever drilling it on a person.

Well, along same lines, here is my thinking also on this

When I trained with CTS, I literally trained with him 6 days a week, about 5 to 6 hours with him... if 35% of what we did was not fighting or conditioning related I still had 65% of my time for those two things (I do however think I am being GEREROUS with 35%, we have too much clap trap in CMA)

Today how many people do and hour class or an hour and 15 min classes only two times a week???

But I also think it is the "culture".. an hour class in many CMA places these days is not the harsh training of the past

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g16EseISVRo

[Kellen Bassette]

"Fighting used to be "the norm"... but not any more"
`This is why the out look is not good.TCMA has lost the culture of fighting.
We have all the drills,the skills,the conditioning,the forms with all the techniques inside them,encyclopedias worth of power generation theory and combat strategy,yet something falls short putting it all together.
Not enough time is spent hitting and getting hit. I my TCMA training I think I must have crescent kicked my own hand thousands of times more than ever drilling it on a person.

Be the change you wish to see in the world.

[pazman]

"self cultivation" and Taoist philosophy has been around a long time in Chinese martial art...

by now, most evidence tells us the "boxers" in the Boxer Rebellion were more religious sect than real martial artists, martial arts was just their "con"

But this "con" grew and grew and grew... big question is WHY?

Perhaps you or bawang might have more insight into this, but I've always felt the turn to "spirituality" was similar to other cultures that felt threatened but had no means to defend themselves. Within a century, China went from being the most powerful country in the world and a regional hegemony to a country being cut up by foreign powers. China moved on but many aspects Chinese culture did not. The mysteries of Daoist alchemy mirror that of "traditional" gongfu...step-by-step up a ladder where you can only see a few rungs above you, but you've been promised heaven at the top. It's a system that easily abused.

[Lucas]

http://www.kungfucinema.com/guide/pe...2-chan-wai-man
chan wai-man

[JamesC]

Chan wai man doesn't look too polished in that fight. Not that it mattered.

David, who would you bet on:
- boxer with only a little instruction but spars often with others
- boxer with a lot of instruction but rarely spars

To me shadowboxing = forms. I'm sure you've seen lots of guys that have decent form while shadowboxing and doing 4/6/8 counts etc, but look terrible when they are faced with an actual opponent.

[bawang]

The TCMA tries to use health, self-cultivation, inner peace, and performance as excuse to avoid combat.

I have never heard any boxer or wrestler ever talk about "self-cultivation". Why?

ask mike Tyson or chris benoit

[-N-]

Kung Fu movie actor who also kickboxed, I would guess late 70's??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHksx50Mtik

The TCMA tries to use health, self-cultivation, inner peace, and performance as excuse to avoid combat.

I have never heard any boxer or wrestler ever talk about "self-cultivation". Why?

http://youtu.be/zSwhhDUwTHQ

Here's an interview with Chan Wai Man, the guy in the fight clip.

He talks about his Triad days and the difference between old school ways and modern gangsters. He also talks about philosophy, changing perspectives, and what's important in life.

[David Jamieson]

The TCMA tries to use health, self-cultivation, inner peace, and performance as excuse to avoid combat.

I have never heard any boxer or wrestler ever talk about "self-cultivation". Why?

TCMA has synthesized self cultivation, chan(zen)-innerpeace and health within it's martial arts. It is unique in that sense. I don't think it's an excuse, it is a part of many systems.

it's not an excuse to "avoid" combat. An excuse to avoid combat is "no, I'm not into fighting" when someone asks you to fight. lol.

Boxer self cultivate through their art form. Their health, their well being and their ability to step up and win is dependent upon their self discipline. Each feeds the other.

You would be hard pressed to find a decent school that doesn't recognize that martial arts require self discipline, sacrifice etc and all of that is self cultivation.

All physical discipline that requires practice and time spent IS self cultivating and movement towards inner peace. IMNSHO.

[Faux Newbie]

Here are some "ring fights" from Hong Kong featuring people form TCMA background

Dai Sing Pek Gwa 1983

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qm5YPpVnM6c

Kung Fu movie actor who also kickboxed, I would guess late 70's??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHksx50Mtik

There are a lot of things we can say about these clips, like
1. Wow, kung fu guys fighting
2. "kickboxing rules" without real knees, elbows, clinch or even throws
3. but definitely NOt fake fights... these are real

My perspective, you can improve the performances here, but it is at least fighting, it is an excellent start

But from my perspective TCMA has not improved from here, they have gone in opposite direction....

Fighting used to be "the norm"... but not any more

Returning this to the beginning.

I think one of the problems is that the visible market is related to the competitions, and forms and drills often are the center of that. You used to see more application related material, but still not often.

Performance in those used to be the way for prospective teachers to further their name.

Plus, you have a whole crowd who will attack anything they see as being less traditional than them, tradition almost always defined as 'doing what we weren't doing 150 years ago,' but I digress.

I don't have a problem with the forms competitions and those who like them, but those taking a different route end up dealing with both tma nuts and mma nuts, because there has never been an activity so focused on validation of self through nothing more than looking for potentially worse people than martial arts.

It's easier to say "you suck" than to not suck. But if you do cma AND like to train for fighting, you clearly are going to get it from all directions regardless of performance.

To top it off, the degree that new information is avoided is anathema to ring sports. I've seen plenty of sifus prepare their students for fights by push ups, hand stands, and form, but no drilling, no familiarity with opponent's, etc. When the student loses, that usually ends that sifu's 'fight program'.

And plenty of tma competitions with fight rules that rule out anyone really serious.