Kung Fu and fighting

[gunbeatskroty]

Yeah, but you never studied or practiced. You watched movies. You don't think skill is transmitted by osmosis I hope. Because getting a Fu Jao to the neck is pretty whack too. Or an Ying Jao to the inguinal crease...that's just nasty.

I did train Shaolin Hung Fut Kung Fu for a little bit. They had a fight team there too, that was probably Sanda. It didn't teach me much. The master/owner was a great guy and I knew him for a long time beforehand, but all I did was forms for a long time. This was when I was young.

Nowadays, I do drop in to different Kung-Fu schools to spar. They only allow tap to light sparring only though. They want me to also do their forms, but I don't because it a lot of stuff to learn and I'm only interested in getting better at fighting. I try to be respectful and say that it would mess with my current MT stance.

[gunbeatskroty]

laroux criticizes forms for being a drill when the form is a drill


ok

Yea, but while you're doing your pretty forms, I'm kicking the shizzle out of pads to get stronger, faster, more precise, etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oc7sM0oQKa0

Ok, not this fast (37 sec) nor this powerful, but I'd like to get there soon.

[Faux Newbie]

Shadow boxing is a dynamic set of of moves and techniques that are individual to the practitioner and come from his actual experiences with fighting.

Forms are set sequences of moves that are the same for everyone performing that form and come from what someone thinks fighting is supposed to be like.

Shadow boxing is alive and relevant to application because it comes from application. Forms are dead and irrelevant to application because they come from what someone somewhere in the past thought fighting was supposed to be like.

I know boxers, and they do not start shadow boxing by applying what they do in fighting, they are given the tools and practice them in shadow boxing. They still follow the form of the move, with influences based on what general goals they apply in fighting after they know the basic form of the techniques. Additionally, only the good boxers do it worth a crap, just like in anything.

That said, form, as in sets, is usually entirely different than shadow boxing. I've seen a few crossovers, like one zhaobao set I saw where each technique is not followed by another technique, but by returning to a natural stance, but this is still only overlap, not the same as shadowboxing, because shadowboxing places technique in the larger context of natural footwork and includes improvisation from the start, not set pattern where one move almost always follows another.

Form is not meant to be shadowboxing, and, if taken as such, leads bad places. Say your form has only two kicks, and thirty other techniques. If that is how you shadow box, the two kicks that are supposed to be essential to the method are hardly practiced in that context.

Additionally, shadow boxing helps form by placing moves in different contexts and allowing you to safely learn to efficiently apply them from those different contexts, without having to make up a nine hour form that applies all variables once. By doing so, one gains a deeper understanding of the mechanics, and a more natural one.

If this were Chinese Buddhism, form(of techniques and sets) and experience would be teachings, shadow boxing would be enaction. The goal would be fixity, the ability to, with a cool head, apply without consideration of what you are applying. To pursue a cool head without knowledge of method would be limited, to have knowledge of method without enaction would be limited, to enact without a cool head, having to think about what you are doing, would be limited, each will have yields, but they will be limited. Shadow boxing is, imo, essential to this, but it is not as you describe (nor will you find a single important boxing manual that says it is) solely the application of what you learn in fighting, the basis begins and remains based around ideas of technique that are learned from more than sparring experience, and even those experiences will be interpreted around previous bodies of knowledge unless you are choosing to reinvent the wheel, which is fine, but not necessarily a good summation of shadow boxing from any style I'm familiar with.

[Kellen Bassette]

I think the interesting thing about chinese martial arts are the forms and conditioning.

But as for realism and superiority western martial arts are the best. The basic combination set of punches from the boxing are superior to chinese martial arts. They are scientifically more powerful than the punches of kung fu, which are awkwardly thrown from the kung fu fighting stance. The guard is often dropped in kung fu (crazy), and the hands are open (like anyone is going to do that in a real fight).

It is humorous the way kung fu fighters adopt a more western boxing guard and fighting style in the ring. Someone said that Bruce Lee had stated that drunken boxing was the elite style of kung fu because of the duck and weave. Another useful defense tactic, that might or might not be used in kung fu.

And when it comes to grappling, greco-roman wrestling is the best. It's looks superior when they pick opponents up and slam them to the ground. Judo or jiu jitsu plays with the opponents lapel.

It's been more or less established that the best innovations from the east are the thigh kick and reverse punch.

sighhhhhhhhhhhh

[sanjuro_ronin]

yeah I know a few chinese that have demonstrated some of their advanced techniques like fa jing to me. From what I saw it's extremely complicated to throw a fajing punch, even though it is extremely powerful. More powerful than boxing.

Western martial arts dominate the mixed martial arts world for a reason. Get used to it, they aren't ineffective. So much of kung fu is still shrouded in secrecy, it is well known.

Chinese masters throw extremely powerful punches, but they aren't that easy to replicate. Personally I would prefer tiger to boxing but its not going to be.

A lot of people overlook greco-roman wrestling when it is extremely powerful.

Boxing strikes are the most natural and "easy" to learn and execute under pressure.
That is why they are so popular and effective.

That said, I have fought and sparred with very advanced boxers and they have as much "fajing" as TCMA that are well versed in fajing.

IMO, strikers that continue to train the right way and regularly all "get there" eventually, they just take different paths.

[Kellen Bassette]

I agree with nothing!!

I expected as much.....

Take a look at the grappling video I put up of one of Ross's training brothers. Do you believe that is more advanced then Greco-roman wrestling????

This is basic chi na theory....this has nothing to do with Greco-Roman...

[Kellen Bassette]

Kellen,

I lump grappling all in one group. IMO, it is all a form of wrestling.

So do I....and the joint lock escape he was showing has nothing to do with Greco-Roman take downs.

Wrestling is basically wrestling. The different disciplines have different training method and flavors, but a whole lot of overlap and a whole lot in common.

[MightyB]

You guys haven't figured it out yet. Martial arts are all about mitigating risk while adding surprise.

[MightyB]

[MightyB]

That picture is really out of context without the whole ZZ Top / dirty beard discussion that preceded it. What happened to all the posts?

[Kellen Bassette]

That picture is really out of context without the whole ZZ Top / dirty beard discussion that preceded it. What happened to all the posts?

Sabotage!!!! Some naked faced child of the '70's took down our comments on illustrious facial hair and the true history of that decade!!!

This is a black day on the forum for sure....

EDIT: I see Spiked's quotes are gone...I wonder if he met some gruesome end at the hands of an angry mod, or if he has crawled back into the shadows, erasing his tracks,in an attempt to reinvent himself and return to punish us all...

[Faux Newbie]

I had revealed too much. I was told not to teach the gwailou. There will be a challenge match that will result in no less then three improbable stories about what happened. As my opponent will do Wing Chun, they will decide that to use disdain for the opinions of others would be too deadly for the fight, and so will rely entirely on random chinese words followed with 'sao'.

[David Jamieson]

Some of you need to resist the urge to pee all over everyone else.
All pee stains will be removed from the pool, so to speak. IE; if you quoted something someone said and what they said was trolling, baiting, badgering, bullying, rude, racist, etc then your post went with it.

No offense, but this thread was a wreck, I cleaned it up and reopened it.
If it get's closed again, you will know why.
If you are trying to build a post count. Don't.

[Faux Newbie]

Here are some "ring fights" from Hong Kong featuring people form TCMA background

Dai Sing Pek Gwa 1983

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qm5YPpVnM6c

Kung Fu movie actor who also kickboxed, I would guess late 70's??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHksx50Mtik

There are a lot of things we can say about these clips, like
1. Wow, kung fu guys fighting
2. "kickboxing rules" without real knees, elbows, clinch or even throws
3. but definitely NOt fake fights... these are real

My perspective, you can improve the performances here, but it is at least fighting, it is an excellent start

But from my perspective TCMA has not improved from here, they have gone in opposite direction....

Fighting used to be "the norm"... but not any more

Returning this to the beginning.

I think one of the problems is that the visible market is related to the competitions, and forms and drills often are the center of that. You used to see more application related material, but still not often.

Performance in those used to be the way for prospective teachers to further their name.

Plus, you have a whole crowd who will attack anything they see as being less traditional than them, tradition almost always defined as 'doing what we weren't doing 150 years ago,' but I digress.

I don't have a problem with the forms competitions and those who like them, but those taking a different route end up dealing with both tma nuts and mma nuts, because there has never been an activity so focused on validation of self through nothing more than looking for potentially worse people than martial arts.

It's easier to say "you suck" than to not suck. But if you do cma AND like to train for fighting, you clearly are going to get it from all directions regardless of performance.

To top it off, the degree that new information is avoided is anathema to ring sports. I've seen plenty of sifus prepare their students for fights by push ups, hand stands, and form, but no drilling, no familiarity with opponent's, etc. When the student loses, that usually ends that sifu's 'fight program'.

And plenty of tma competitions with fight rules that rule out anyone really serious.

[lkfmdc]

I've seen plenty of sifus prepare their students for fights by push ups, hand stands, and form, but no drilling, no familiarity with opponent's, etc. When the student loses, that usually ends that sifu's 'fight program'.

Well, I hate to do this, but... nah, I don't hate to do this

The US Wushu Union was set up to counter act the USA WKF and had one event with sanshou before it folded up and died... At that event a Chinese instructor in monk robes (despite NOT being a monk mind you) put his students in the competition...

The students were friendly enough, not hard feelings. One of my guys' KO'ed one of them in under a minute... we actually felt bad for the guy and talked to him afterwards

They had NEVER sparred. They had done basically forms and "one steps" and had been told that their "real Shaolin" would mean they would win their fights.

A VERY HARSH WAKE UP CALL

One wonders, did they go home, cancel their memberships and find another placed to train?

Or did they go on doing what they were doing and tried to forget the tournament?

Sadly, I suspect most did the latter....