UFC 1-4 allowed all strikes & pressure points

[Kevin73]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...ghly-regulated

Violation of the rules was a fine, not disqualification. The fine was $1000.

[Pete]

The point is even with really limited rules TMA got its backside handed to it in both the early UFCs and the pride events

i've been looking at some TMA classes near my home and that doesn't suprise me...have you seen the state it's in? at least in the west... i've come to the conclusion any laowai shifu is poop (at least in my area!)

have a look at these guys: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=FW1A1BQR_4M

i'll see if i can download the early ufc stuff and have a watch

[sanjuro_ronin]

You guys should also remember that before there was UFC there was the vale tudo matches in Brazil and other places and those were very much "anything goes", far more than the UFC was.
The results were the same however.

[gunbeatskroty]

In the first UFC, the "unofficial rules" were no biting, no eye gouges and no groin shots.

No, this is incorrect. The announcers even repeated the rules often.

Groin shots were always allowed. Keith Hackney punched Jo Son in the nuts like 5x when he was stuck, laying leg spread on the ground.

No biting, no eye gouging and no fish hooking were the OFFICIAL RULES. But they didn't disqualify. Only fined $1,000 per incident. So someone could have bit or eye gouge to get out of a sure loss situation and even win the whole tournament, $60,000 and come out ahead.

I have also heard that neck/throat strikes were not permitted.

This is also wrong. Plenty of fighters got hit in the back of the neck, especially when someone has them in the full rear mount. When they get their ankles under your knee caps, you get stretched out and can't move while they throw repeated down elbows into the back of your neck.

Throat strikes were certainly allowed....they are no big deal to begin with. I've been hit plenty of times in the throat. You just get a sore throat later, that just goes away in a day. It hardly even hurts when you're fighting.

Stuff that all makes sense to have prohibited. But, just pointing out that there was alot of behind the scenes stuff that wasn't ever advertised in their "no rules" competition.

The announcers said this in every early UFC's. It wasn't something mysterious. I even stated this in my original post.

[gunbeatskroty]

We are in agreement on this one. I was just pointing out that many people have said you never see X in the UFC and in UFC 1 it was allowed and they would have done it. Things you do for self-defense in a life threatening situation are very different than a sporting contest. All of the fighters realized it and pretty much abided by it.

No, I don't think he agrees with you at all. He's someone's who's fought before, and especially in Vale Tudo where it's even more real than UFC 1-4.

If you've never fought before in the ring or cage, you wouldn't know what it was like. And I'm talking about full contact, trying to KO the other guy. There's no different between a sports fighter throwing 20 repeated elbows to someone's face in the cage than it is in the street. In both cases, he's throwing this elbow with every intention to kill his opponent. The reason that no one dies in the cage is because the Ref will stop it. Knocking someone the F out, works just the same in the streets. Who's going to be better at doing this?

And kicking at nutsacks, eye strikes, etc. are not some amazing techniques that no sports fighter can figure out. It takes more skills to not kick someone in the nuts. With no rules in the streets, it would be so much easier for the sports fighter to dominate. Sloppy dum-dums in the streets are a joke.

[gunbeatskroty]

He did think about it. Again, it comes back to the difference between sport and self-defense.

The main premise of this thread was why didn't you see "X" in the first UFC's. Just pointing out that there were alot of things that you didn't see because it was a sporting competition.

NOT saying that there is not overlap or that the skills you develop fighting MMA don't prepare you for "the street" (wherever that magical place is). Just that it isn't a clear cut thing that if you don't see something in the UFC that it means it automatically doesn't work or that if you do see something in the UFC that it is the end all for S-D.

No, the reason that you didn't see a lot of the eye gouging and other garbage, women anti-rape defenses was because there were no real opportunities to do them while Gracie was about break their arms off. You think it's easy to just eye gouge or bite someone, but try it in a fight vs. an experienced MMA fighter....just an amateur with about 5 fights.....so heck, not even a million miles close to Royce Gracie.

Also, the camera often misses the bites, etc. It was later in various interviews that Gracie said those guy bit him and that's why he didn't let go of the armbar, chokes, etc.....to make them pay. Gracie clarified this because people accused him of being a D. If it were in Brazil's Vale Tudo, it would have been much worse for the biters.

And when Gracie have you on the ground, who do you think is going to be in dominant position usually? I hope you don't think that you would have dominant position over Gracie.....so it would be suicide on your part to try to eye gouge at Gracie, as he has more leverage to block your eye gouges and now can much easier eye gouge you (as payback) from such dominant position.

See, I also train at a Krav Maga school just to broaden my horizon. Krav Maga is probably the best Self Defense type classes out there today. And guess what, when it's sparring time...I beat them all down like they were little children. This KM school however, does fight and do have Pro and Amateur sports fighters....those are the only ones that are my equal or 1 or 2 can beat me. But just about all of the KM guys, going crazy and screaming and yelling while hitting pads..acting like they're in Bloodsport or something...I light them all up during sparring (and I'm not even going hard yet). I can certainly hit harder, faster, more accurate, etc. than any of these Self Defense only people....so who's going to win in the cage or in the streets. Think they can just walk up and kick me in the nuts before I knock them the F out? And at my MMA gym, I'm not even close to being the top dog.

[gunbeatskroty]

As to "pressure points", it depends on how you are defining it.

If you mean some "magical spot" that you barely touch or do a vulcan pinch and they just pass out, then "NO" you will not see pressure points anywhere outside of a compliant demo.

Not true, there's the carotid nerve strike:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zs9dmw-i4M4

The Whiteguy is Peter Polander. I've sparred at his dojo before. And while I'm not a big fan of Karate, Polander is also a high level Judoka and all around beast. Even though I outclassed a couple of his black belts during light sparring, I would never step up to Polander for real.

I don't waste time training this strike is because I'd rather knock him out with a shot to the chin.

If you mean spots on the human body that are weaker due to their structure or the nerves running closer to the surface than you do see those.

When I fight, I go for the chin but generally anywhere in the face, side of the head, etc.....then the liver, the solar plexus.....back of the thigh, etc. There are nerves everywhere. And if I hit someone places that wasn't a weak point.... hard and often enough, it too can become one.

But I don't sit there and map it out. In a fight, you just throw in the vicinity of the head, whatever. Like when I throw a high kick to the head, I'm not exactly aiming for a pinpoint target. Just landing on any part of the side of the head is going to be a good hit, including the neck, etc. I go for the chin, but if I catch his nose....great. Raining full elbows on just about any body parts of an opponent will hurt them, a lot.

Here is the fight between Robbie Lawler and Tiki. Go to about the 1:30 mark and it shows the fight replay. Lawler hits him with a wide swing, which in TMA would be called a ridgehand to the side of Tiki's neck. This is the same spot that is taught to LEO's across the country as a pressure point tactic to KO a suspect.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R08z0PIUUNA

This just further proves my point that an experienced MMA fighter is going to destroy the average Self Defense Kung-Fu, Krav Maga or whatever guy who never spars for full KO's as regular training, let alone fights in the cage. Who's going to hit harder, faster and more accurate?

We had a local police officer who used to compete a few years ago professionally in MMA and would show how to combine certain pressure points with regular techniques to get more bang for your buck. It didn't replace the good old fashioned basic techniques, but it was kind of a bonus that you could use in certain cases.

I still maintain that hitting them in the face works the best. Their entire face is a giant pressure point. When someone's trained and throwing 30-50 jabs at your face per round, with many of them landing, there's not much that you can do in terms of any of these pressure point attacks....hard to even take them to the ground also.

[gunbeatskroty]

i've been looking at some TMA classes near my home and that doesn't suprise me...have you seen the state it's in? at least in the west... i've come to the conclusion any laowai shifu is poop (at least in my area!)

have a look at these guys: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=FW1A1BQR_4M

i'll see if i can download the early ufc stuff and have a watch

That's a lot of out of shape, flabby black belts.

[sanjuro_ronin]

The Vale Tudo matches I fought had a different rules.
Sometimes it was simply no biting and others simply obey the ref and respect the stoppage.
I fought in few that throats and eyes were valid and I could tell who went for them.
It rarely worked.
As any fighter knows, hitting the HEAD clean isn't always easy, less so for the jaw, EVEN LESS so for the throat or eyes.
I had one guy try to "tiger claw" my throat !
He got elbowed up the yin-yang and got a dislocated elbow for his troubles.
I have a scratch over my eye from an attempted eye gouge and another on my cheek ( very faint), they got ****ed up royally for those attempts.
People learn very quickly that cheap shots don't work as well as they think and only make things worse for them.

That said, I know a few ways to make eye gouges and throat strikes/grabs work very, very well.

[Pete]

That's a lot of out of shape, flabby black belts.

their shifu (or whatever) is a 6th degree black belt i think i'm happy being a nobelt nobody and not wasting my time

vale tudo sounds interesting...is it still about? links to any fight vids ?

[sanjuro_ronin]

their shifu (or whatever) is a 6th degree black belt i think i'm happy being a nobelt nobody and not wasting my time

vale tudo sounds interesting...is it still about? links to any fight vids ?

Yep, still about but the best fighters now compete in sanctioned events, so...

[Subitai]

I'm fairly certain the rules for UFC didn't get major overhaul until sometime after #7

In UFC 7, there was a particularly GORY head-butt in the Alternate Fights. It happened during the Gaza Coleman fight. Lots of blood made it onto the octagon mat surface and I remember allot of discussion about changing rules afterward. But nobody remembers the alternate fights too much because they are not on the vids you can buy.

Best I can remember, prior to the fight we had a meeting with Ref Big John Mccarthy... the only rules that seem to really stick out were No Eye Gouging, No Biting and my memory is a little vague about if you could stomp on a dudes face when he's down. Not too much else beyond those.

About hair pulling...i'm not ashamed to say I did a little of that...but only because my opponent had greased his hair up so much, my hands felt slippery and I had a hard time holding onto him or getting any sorta grips. Haha, the guy tried to Gordon Liu me like in the movie "Heroes of the East" vs the big Judo guy.


Side info...ok, As I now feel compelled to defend "Alternates" everywhere.

In 1995, I submitted my entry into UFC 7, As a Filipino/Kung Fu fighter. During those early years...The Ultimate Fighting Championship was the brainchild of Rorion Gracie and Arthur Davie of SEG sports corporation. I was told specifically by Arthur Davie that I was selected out of hundreds of applicants because up to that point...they had not had a Filipino fighter represent in the octagon.

Only problem was... with no weight classes most of the fighters in the main draw were BIG. So he decided to put me with the alternates. I could wrong but that's how I felt when I spoke to Art about it.

Back then it was a bracketed tourney...so you had to fight at least 3 times in a nite to win UFC. Alternates were supposed to fight their own matches and then fill in for someone in the main draw.
However, I don't like the lack of respect we alternates sometimes get because we had just as much desire to go to the finish as anyone else. Honestly, there were/are politics and money involved and that hasn't changed.

[GeneChing]

About hair pulling...i'm not ashamed to say I did a little of that...

You shoulda busted his fangs too.

[Scott R. Brown]

When I fought Vale tudo in the mid and late 90's there were only two rules:
Respect the tap, respect the ref.
Honestly, any guy hat tried to bit or fish hook or eye gouge got ****ed up pretty bad.
If you wanted to make sure your opponent, who ever it was, was not going to respect you and go out of his way to hurt you, you'd try to pull one of those stupid moves and pay the price.

I have known a former UFC Champion's trainer for close to 20 years.

He told me this 15-20 years ago about UFC. He was also a former full contact fighter and he told me they wouldn't let him, and other former full contact fighters, compete in the UFC in the beginning.

[lkfmdc]

I have known a former UFC Champion's trainer for close to 20 years.

He told me this 15-20 years ago about UFC. He was also a former full contact fighter and he told me they wouldn't let him, and other former full contact fighters, compete in the UFC in the beginning.

They were selective in how picked fighters, there is no question

The WHY is subjective? to get a good diversity? original UFC was supposed to be style vs style and to prove that tma striking wasnt' so dangerous

For entertainment? Big sumos, guys carrying crosses to the cage, "ninjas" did add to the entertainment value

To protect the Gracie family and insure they win? Maybe but not so clear... well, Benny the Jet was invited but wanted too much money, but he was a striker and the Gracies were pretty sure they could beat any striker

Oleg Taktarov was in the Gracie school and would have fought for FREE but they kept him out until Rocye was no longer in the tournament