TWC vs. Boxing

[KPM]

Phil Redmond posted this on his facebook page. I had never seen it before and thought it was pretty cool! I hope Phil doesn't mind me reposting it here. This is some footage from back in the 80's of William Cheung doing a comparison and some light sparring with a professional Boxer. If you have some constructive comments to make and want to talk about how Wing Chun stacks up against boxing, do so! But please no lineage bashing or insulting posts!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndhjwSXTrz4

[sihing]

This vid has been around for awhile now..

My nitpicking is this:

1) watch the boxer throw his punches while shadow boxing, his intention there is much higher than when he is punching with WC.

2) WC is constantly circling, trying to get the blindside, is whole axis is going sideways constantly, not into the target where his punches are going, this leads to virtually no real power in his punch, just the extension of the punch which uses the weak triceps muscle alone.

3) WC has No penetration into the boxers COM, just staying outside and dealing with the various punches coming at him. When you penetrate the COM you have less punches to deal with, staying on the outside with a boxer, we can't deal with that as effectively as WC/VT ppl, as they are a larger arsenal of strikes than we do, and our punch is too short to use it at that longer range.

4) Chasing hands.

I've met and trained with WC, he's got skills for sure, fast and such but this demo is not a good one for him IMO.

James

[Faux Newbie]

It's almost impossible to talk about the sparring section too much because Cheung doesn't wear the gloves. I wish he would have, it would be fun to see a more involved representation. Literally he had to pull every strike, but it's still a fun enough vid to watch.

[sihing]

It's almost impossible to talk about the sparring section too much because Cheung doesn't wear the gloves. I wish he would have, it would be fun to see a more involved representation. Literally he had to pull every strike, but it's still a fun enough vid to watch.

Nothing of what he was doing would work with the gloves, maybe MMA mitts, but not boxing gloves...too big to use it..IMO

[KPM]

Hi James!

This vid has been around for awhile now..
---I thought it probably had been around. But it was the first time I had seen it.


1) watch the boxer throw his punches while shadow boxing, his intention there is much higher than when he is punching with WC.

---This is true. But also look at the range of his punches when he is shadow-boxing with power and intent. Very short. His opponent would have to be almost nose to nose with him for those punches to land.

2) WC is constantly circling, trying to get the blindside, is whole axis is going sideways constantly, not into the target where his punches are going, this leads to virtually no real power in his punch, just the extension of the punch which uses the weak triceps muscle alone.

---Yes. On a boxer with good footwork he was having trouble taking the blind side. I've also noticed this about TWC, that there is often no "finish" in an exchange. But in his defense, this was a "light sparring" scenario. Neither WC or the boxer was really "closing in for the kill" and trying to strike with power and intent. But it was pretty obvious that the boxer's punches would have been more powerful than WC's. But then, that kind of applies to Wing Chun in general as well.

3) WC has No penetration into the boxers COM, just staying outside and dealing with the various punches coming at him.

---Noted above. Neither sparring partner was "closing in for the kill." They were just exchanging back and forth. I got the impression that maybe WC was experimenting a bit to see what might work. Getting to play around with a professional boxer like that was likely not a common thing for him, or most of us for that matter! :-) It wasn't a real match.


4) Chasing hands.

---I know this is a consistent criticism of TWC. Tracking the striking arm to manipulate to get to the blind side could be seen as chasing hands. But its an integral part of the strategy. So when used properly with TWC blind side strategy, it wouldn't really be "chasing hands." To me, "chasing hands" implies that you are wasting your time dealing with something you don't need to deal with rather than just getting to the point and striking the opponent. But if what you are doing is positioning you so that you are able to strike the opponent, and is actually being done before you are even close enough to strike the opponent, is it still "chasing hands"?

I've met and trained with WC, he's got skills for sure, fast and such but this demo is not a good one for him IMO.

---The clip is from the 80's. Maybe he's changed/updated his approach to a boxer since then?

[KPM]

Nothing of what he was doing would work with the gloves, maybe MMA mitts, but not boxing gloves...too big to use it..IMO

Yeah, I agree.

[sihing]

Hey Keith,

If you notice in PB's video's, he's entering in range and pushing his partners away bit, this is a way to express power without having to hit. Like you say, no one in the vid is training to go in for the Kill, that is the problem right there. Wing Chun sucks in light sparring as we HAVE to go in for the KILL as this is where we function from, when you continually stop your power and mechanics from expressing by holding back and back stopping it your only hurting yourself, which is why we do slight pushes and expressions of exploding power when we play around, it helps us in applying it later on

J

[sihing]

One can do what WC did just to get use to the power and range of a boxer or kboxer, be totally defensive and evasive as well, I've seen Steve Morris do this in one of his vids..no problem with that, but WC was trying to get in and finish, his punches were fast but no power, and improper range IMO...if anything he's probably made it worse as the years have gone by, he was in his haydays back then in the 80's...

J

[KPM]

If you notice in PB's video's, he's entering in range and pushing his partners away bit, this is a way to express power without having to hit. Like you say, no one in the vid is training to go in for the Kill, that is the problem right there. Wing Chun sucks in light sparring as we HAVE to go in for the KILL as this is where we function from,

--Yeah, I agree. TWC talks about taking the opponent's balance in its B.O.E.C. strategy, but we don't really see it in this video.


but WC was trying to get in and finish, his punches were fast but no power, and improper range IMO...

---Yeah. I think it was a case of "the myth of the killer chain punch!!!" A lot of Wing Chun suffers from that!!

if anything he's probably made it worse as the years have gone by, he was in his haydays back then in the 80's...

---Maybe so. He was in his prime back then!

[Faux Newbie]

Again, without gloves, no power is a necessity, so saying they have no power is problematic. JKD gloves were around then, without gloves, he clearly was not going to just nail the dude. Not a criticism of the footage, it's just that there was no way to demo power at all under those conditions.

[KPM]

So, to expand the discussion based on what James and I have been talking about.......Which is a better strategy for Wing Chun.....to stay in the middle distance and try to win at punching, or move into close distance and risk getting all tied up in a clinch?

[Faux Newbie]

I've always wondered this, it seems to me that wing chun's bridging must assume that that is a moment in between, good to control if you can, but there must be stuff for the outer and inner ranges from that. Is that not the case?

Not a wing chun guy, though one of the guys who learned my system with me is, fun times.

[YouKnowWho]

to stay in the middle distance and try to win at punching, or move into close distance and risk getting all tied up in a clinch?

If you stay in

- middle range, you will need to enhance your striking skill with circular punches such as hook (or haymaker), uppercut, ...
- close distance, you will need to enhance your clinching skill such as head lock, under hook, over hook, ...

When I cross trained WC, I already knew hook, uppercut, head lock, over hook, under hook, ... It was not a concern to me.

[KPM]

- middle range, you will need to enhance your striking skill with circular punches such as hook (or haymaker), uppercut, ...

----A lot of the TWC guys have done that. Victor talked about that a lot.

- close distance, you will need to enhance your clinching skill such as head lock, under hook, over hook, ...

----The Chu Sau Lei guys (Alan Orr et al) do that.

---I also wanted to point out something I forgot to say before. In that clip notice that William Cheung is using no kicks. Low-line kicks can be a game-changer against a boxer who isn't used to defending against them. TWC uses them a lot. Just not in that clip.

[KPM]

I've always wondered this, it seems to me that wing chun's bridging must assume that that is a moment in between, good to control if you can, but there must be stuff for the outer and inner ranges from that. Is that not the case?

.

That "in between" is what the JKD guys call "trapping range." Punching to Trapping to Stand-up Grappling/Clinching. But interestingly, some of the more "contemporary" JKD guys like Burton Richardson have realized that in modern day usage against skilled MMA types that "trapping range" just doesn't happen very often. So they have pretty much abandoned it. A good MMA guy goes from punching right to clinching and "dirty boxing." And they are pretty good at keeping anyone else from functioning at that "trapping range" as well. Since most Wing Chun people see the "trapping range" as their forte, this can be a problem! I think that's why when we watch video footage of Wing Chun guys sparring it often doesn't look like the Wing Chun they use in training. And when guys like Alan Orr actually make their Wing Chun work against MMA types in that "trapping range", they still get accused of not looking like Wing Chun!

As far as "stuff for the outer and inner ranges from that", the "outer range" is punching and kicking. When TWC guys work their primary game plan from there they get accused of being "Wing Chun kickboxers" or of "chasing hands." The "inner range" is clinching and standing grappling, something that most Wing Chun guys don't do. And ironically, when Alan Orr and his guys actually train for that, they are accused of "not doing Wing Chun." So you see, its kind of a dilemma!

If you fight primarily from the punching/kicking range you are a kickboxer and "chasing hands" regardless of what you do. If you fight primarily in the clinching range you are a grappler. That leaves Wing Chun with the trapping range, which doesn't happen very often in a real fight against a skilled opponent!

At least that's one way to look at it. I'm sure other's here will set me straight!