TWC vs. Boxing

[YouKnowWho]

Low-line kicks can be a game-changer against a boxer who isn't used to defending against them. TWC uses them a lot. Just not in that clip.

Agree! I had a boxer who ran into my kick and dropped down right in front of me with broken ribs. I'll never exchange punches with a boxer. When I deal with a boxer, I will use

- kicks,
- foot sweep,
- clinch followed by take down.

If you want to make your fight simple when you fight a boxer, all you need to do is to kick his leading leg knee joint (sometime foot sweep may be better). If your boxer opponent can't put weight on his leading leg, he can't punch you. It's not a good idea to exchange punches with a boxer unless you just want to test your punching skill. Since punching is a boxer's bread and butter, I see no reason to play with their game.

[KPM]

So, to expand the discussion based on what James and I have been talking about.......Which is a better strategy for Wing Chun.....to stay in the middle distance and try to win at punching, or move into close distance and risk getting all tied up in a clinch?

No takers? Ok. I think either approach is equally valid, though very different.

1. We might call this "long arm Wing Chun." This is typically what the TWC guys do. Stay around that boxing/punching range, avoid the jab, work to the blindside and tie up one of his arms, pepper the opponent with kicks on the way in and punches when within range. Work at off-balancing him but not necessarily closing to any kind of grappling. The problem here is that a good striker can be hard to defend against. A good boxer with mobile footwork can make it hard to get to the blindside. Even though you are throwing some good punches, they aren't necessarily going to take out someone with a "good chin", so it may be hard to finish from here.

2. We might call this one "close quarters Wing Chun." This is typically what Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun does. Intercept what the opponent throws and close quickly to "trapping/clinching" range, move into the opponent to off-balance him and make him take a step while staying "attached" to him for control, pepper him with punches and slap on an arm-lock, neck crank, or choke as appropriate. The problem here is that a good dirty boxer or grappler is hard to off-balance and control. You have to keep him from clinching or tieing you up. You can very easily, and will very likely (!) end up on the ground from here. But with a Boxer, this isn't typically a problem.

#1 seeks to control the striking range and dominate there.
#2 seeks to control the trapping/clinching range and dominate there.

IMHO, too many in Wing Chun do neither one! At least not very well. And it seems NO ONE is doing both well! At least not yet!

[Wayfaring]

That "in between" is what the JKD guys call "trapping range." Punching to Trapping to Stand-up Grappling/Clinching. But interestingly, some of the more "contemporary" JKD guys like Burton Richardson have realized that in modern day usage against skilled MMA types that "trapping range" just doesn't happen very often. So they have pretty much abandoned it. A good MMA guy goes from punching right to clinching and "dirty boxing." And they are pretty good at keeping anyone else from functioning at that "trapping range" as well. Since most Wing Chun people see the "trapping range" as their forte, this can be a problem! I think that's why when we watch video footage of Wing Chun guys sparring it often doesn't look like the Wing Chun they use in training. And when guys like Alan Orr actually make their Wing Chun work against MMA types in that "trapping range", they still get accused of not looking like Wing Chun!

In boxing and MMA some coaches call "trapping range" "the pocket". Usually it involves both range and angle. And like with the quarterback in football, the pocket collapses quickly most of the time.

As far as "stuff for the outer and inner ranges from that", the "outer range" is punching and kicking. When TWC guys work their primary game plan from there they get accused of being "Wing Chun kickboxers" or of "chasing hands." The "inner range" is clinching and standing grappling, something that most Wing Chun guys don't do. And ironically, when Alan Orr and his guys actually train for that, they are accused of "not doing Wing Chun." So you see, its kind of a dilemma!

If you fight primarily from the punching/kicking range you are a kickboxer and "chasing hands" regardless of what you do. If you fight primarily in the clinching range you are a grappler. That leaves Wing Chun with the trapping range, which doesn't happen very often in a real fight against a skilled opponent!

At least that's one way to look at it. I'm sure other's here will set me straight!

My belief is that your WCK has to be able to handle all 3 ranges (outer, inner, clinch). And you have to be fluid in functioning between the 3. If someone crashes and gets past your elbows you have be able to recover and reset and attack.

[guy b.]

Boxer looked to be moving at half speed or less and not trying to hit. Wing chun power looked very light, timing and movement poor.

[KPM]

Boxer looked to be moving at half speed or less and not trying to hit. Wing chun power looked very light, timing and movement poor.

Like I said before, it was a "light sparring" session and more of a comparison in approaches. Not a full-on bout.

[KPM]

My belief is that your WCK has to be able to handle all 3 ranges (outer, inner, clinch). And you have to be fluid in functioning between the 3. If someone crashes and gets past your elbows you have be able to recover and reset and attack.

I agree. That's the ideal. But how often do we really see it?

[guy b.]

Like I said before, it was a "light sparring" session and more of a comparison in approaches. Not a full-on bout.

Not a light sparring session. The boxer is functioning more like a pad man here

[GlennR]

No takers? Ok. I think either approach is equally valid, though very different.

1. We might call this "long arm Wing Chun." This is typically what the TWC guys do. Stay around that boxing/punching range, avoid the jab, work to the blindside and tie up one of his arms, pepper the opponent with kicks on the way in and punches when within range. Work at off-balancing him but not necessarily closing to any kind of grappling. The problem here is that a good striker can be hard to defend against. A good boxer with mobile footwork can make it hard to get to the blindside. Even though you are throwing some good punches, they aren't necessarily going to take out someone with a "good chin", so it may be hard to finish from here.

2. We might call this one "close quarters Wing Chun." This is typically what Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun does. Intercept what the opponent throws and close quickly to "trapping/clinching" range, move into the opponent to off-balance him and make him take a step while staying "attached" to him for control, pepper him with punches and slap on an arm-lock, neck crank, or choke as appropriate. The problem here is that a good dirty boxer or grappler is hard to off-balance and control. You have to keep him from clinching or tieing you up. You can very easily, and will very likely (!) end up on the ground from here. But with a Boxer, this isn't typically a problem.

#1 seeks to control the striking range and dominate there.
#2 seeks to control the trapping/clinching range and dominate there.

IMHO, too many in Wing Chun do neither one! At least not very well. And it seems NO ONE is doing both well! At least not yet!

Good post, its fairly obvious IMO that differing WC styles have a preferred range

[YouKnowWho]

I don't think to prefer a certain range is practical. If you are afraid to get into the clinching range, when you punch at your opponent, your "intention" may not be strong enough to committee yourself fully.

If you are only good at holding your girl's hands but not willing to hug her body, you will never be able to kiss her, not mention to make love to her. You have to be good in all ranges when you date your girlfriend. TCMA is no different.

[KPM]

I don't think to prefer a certain range is practical. If you are afraid to get into the clinching range, when you punch at your opponent, your "intention" may not be strong enough to committee yourself fully.

If you are only good at holding your girl's hands but not willing to hug her body, you will never be able to kiss her, not mention to make love to her. You have to be good in all ranges when you date your girlfriend. TCMA is no different.

Yeah. Like Wayfaring pointed out. That's the ideal. We just don't actually see it very often!

[Frost]

Yeah. Like Wayfaring pointed out. That's the ideal. We just don't actually see it very often!

Why is that?? is it because people don’t train it, or is it because most wing chun simply doesn’t have a clinch game or and outside game, it operates in that no mans land that so many southern arts operate in, which only really works when your opponent also plays the same game?

[Kellen Bassette]

Why is that?? is it because people don’t train it, or is it because most wing chun simply doesn’t have a clinch game or and outside game, it operates in that no mans land that so many southern arts operate in, which only really works when your opponent also plays the same game?

I think some people don't really grasp the concept that when your opponent initiates the clinch, you must play clinch game. You really can't say "No, I'm just going to step back, reset and continue striking as I was." You must either fight in the clinch, fight out of the clinch (using clinch fighting,) back to striking, or go to the ground. There's really not an option to say, "Nah, I don't want to clinch," once your opponent achieves the position.

It's really not some mysterious complicated skill, not difficult to train for the clinch...it's OK to also work on things that may not be in WC, IMO.....

[Frost]

I think some people don't really grasp the concept that when your opponent initiates the clinch, you must play clinch game. You really can't say "No, I'm just going to step back, reset and continue striking as I was." You must either fight in the clinch, fight out of the clinch (using clinch fighting,) back to striking, or go to the ground. There's really not an option to say, "Nah, I don't want to clinch," once your opponent achieves the position.

It's really not some mysterious complicated skill, not difficult to train for the clinch...it's OK to also work on things that may not be in WC, IMO.....

Well you can stop the guy initiating the clinch or at least really make him pay…BUT that’s hard to do AND typically the strikes used to make him pay on the way in: hard crosses and long range upper cuts, and power jabs landed at long range with real intent, and the type of footwork needed to stop the clinch: lateral movement, not to mention the type of power generation needed to make this work: real hip rotation so you can generate power without stepping in and whilst moving laterally, typically isn’t seen in wing chun

As for your other point, well if your style was developed in a setting where other syles also didn’t clinch and also liked to bridge, then well..you are generally going to be in trouble when you meet a style that does like to clinch and does blow right through that ground between striking and clinching

As for your general point...well growth and change doesnt seem to be a part of the wing chun way

[Kellen Bassette]

Well you can stop the guy initiating the clinch or at least really make him pay…

You can stop the clinch before it happens, what I meant was it is pretty difficult to do anything effectively, (except clinch fighting,) once he has successfully achieved the clinch...

The whole idea of, "don't let him clinch you," is not an acceptable defense when he does. Things don't always go as planned....

[Frost]

You can stop the clinch before it happens, what I meant was it is pretty difficult to do anything effectively, (except clinch fighting,) once he has successfully achieved the clinch...

The whole idea of, "don't let him clinch you," is not an acceptable defense when he does. Things don't always go as planned....

and its even harder to stop the clinch if you are a close range system who faces square on and punches with the elbow down.....